Jurchen -> Manchu -> Qing Idea Groups?

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Olligarchy

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Anyone got good ideas for the Jurchen idea groups? Just started as one of them and figured it was pretty 'smart' of me to take Exploration as my first idea to maximize the basically useless Diplomatic points into colony creation. Thinking administration as 2nd would be a good idea too to maximize my -Coring Costs... but what about after them?
 

JayToTheMe

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I did the same thing, except with admin first then diplo because I got a 6/1/4 as my first heir. It's been working pretty well. I'm actually considering going expansion third because I'm still (comparatively) ahead on admin points and I find harsh treatment to be more worthwhile these days - I've been pretty much nonstop expanding, and it usually only takes one or two harsh treatment applications before the rebellion timer slows down as nationalism dies off.
 

PAnZuRiEL

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First, you want to declare war on the smallest of your Jurchen neighbours on day 0, and vassalise them, do not annex them. Then vassalise the remaining one immediately afterwards. Otherwise alliance webs involving Ming make things frustrating.

You definitely need Humanism as your first idea group if you want to expand via conquest, because you have a lot of wrong culture heretic and heathen neighbours. After that, I'd play it by ear. Exploration or Expansion might be good for blocking off the Western colonisers, but I'd abandon one or both (certainly the latter at least) afterwards. Admin is probably a solid choice for a second or third group. Most of the mil ideas are useful, and most of the dip ideas probably aren't so much.
 

Olligarchy

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Okay, so far this is sounding like a good idea (included the ideas I already have with * marking them):
1. Exploration*: Lets me expand into Siberia, the Pacific and eventually the Americas.
2. Administration*: Cheaper cores and mercs. Easier to conserve manpower and core conquered areas.
3. Defensive: Easier to fight in the attrition high areas I own AND cause more damage to invaders.
4. Influence/Diplomatic (?): Easier to Diplo annex and cheaper tech. Which one is better really?
5. Humanism: To make it easier to hold onto gained lands, get accepted cultures and heretics.
6. Offensive: To complement defensive, higher discipline, better generals.
7. Trade: To take control of the massive amount of trade in now conquered regions.
8. Quality: Better troops.
 

Chimerae

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Don't you need to reform government to form Manchu and Qing? If so, you need to take admin, inno or economic as first or second IG

No you don't. If you form Manchu you instantly turn into a despotic monarchy. You keep nomad tech and units though. By forming Qing you get Chinese tech and units. I highly advise NOT to do it, since you loose a lot of manpower and force limits!
 

Aries666

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I wènt explo, defensive then stopped because i got the achievement I would have taken religious or inno next, then offensive, then regilious orinno. If you are a confucian jurchen you probably because you will end up with max heretic tolerance meaning constant conversions which will drive unrest if you keep converting them back.
 

Peanutcat

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I went with expansion first then offensive, after that I took influence as third then defensive as fourth. Make sure you set your national focus at military points, It's possible to keep up and even become ahead of time in military points that way, it'll greatly help. If you leave a province i siberia Spain will eventually colonize it which will give you an insane neighbour bonus in tech (at least if you're behind enough, I gained -50% in diplo and admin tech when they came and I also westernised then.)

I would strongly recommend influence ideas as it makes it extremely fast to fabricate claims, during peace all you have to do is sit there and fabricate a claim on every province Ming has, In the war you can then take ~90% OE for 30-40 war score resulting in a short truce and due to the fact that you have claims it'll cost no dip points to take and only 30-50% admin points per province due to manchu ideas

With som luck you can do this
Qing
Diplomapmode
Ideas

Also if you westernise establish the annoying Pasai as a protectorate, otherwise they'll steal all your trade. (taking 30 income a month from you)
 

PanH

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No you don't. If you form Manchu you instantly turn into a despotic monarchy. You keep nomad tech and units though. By forming Qing you get Chinese tech and units. I highly advise NOT to do it, since you loose a lot of manpower and force limits!
That's actually a bug (Wiz said it), and you should get chinese units upon forming Manchu.
 

Kirikano

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Depends on what kind of a game your looking to have. I wanted to go on a conquest spree, so here is what I did.

Start as Haixi - Jianzhou borders Korea and Ming at the start, so its very likely to be hated or disliked by one or both of them. Haixi on the otherhand can form an alliance with one or both of them and conserve manpower. Yeren is pagan, so while that makes for easy conversion to Christianity later, its still a pain in the ass. Haixi also has the benefit of getting to expand in all 4 directs at the start instead of having the sea to the east.

Get Administrative first, put national focus on it. Stacking coring cost reduction is amazing. More and cheaper mercenaries is also amazing since you'll want to conserve as much manpower as possible. And the earlier you get Administrative, the more ADM points you'll save in the long run, which are the most important MP points in the game.

I basically ran around with all my merc eastern archers in one stack and regular swarm cavalry in a second stack, using the first to siege and take the brunt of the damage in large battles, and the cavalry to murder my enemies and wipe medium sized or smaller stacks. Try to keep manpower above 25% as much as possible or peasants war event could fire and screw you over.

After allying with Ming and Korea, expand into Yeren and Jianzhou - vassalize them, do not take provinces directly from them. You need to save the ADM points early, especially if you don't have your core reduction cost modifiers yet. I took 2 provinces that I had claims on so that I could attack Buryat (or whatever that tribe to the north is called) and start fabbing claims on Korea). Should be very easy with Ming or Korea at your back. After that, you should have your core cost reduction ideas up, start spamming out claims in all directions. I didn't bother with improving relations with anyone except my vassals to annex them, and so even with being at war constantly, I always had claims on pretty much every province possible. If you manage to ally Ming and they didn't become hostile, use them to soak up all of manpower of your horde enemies to the west. Start making your way to Muscovy. Alliance with Korea should also break after you integrate Jianzhou, so you can start attacking them too. When Ming does turn hostile, you should be wealth enough for at least 15 cavalry regiments, and be ahead at least one or two levels. Crush them.

I went with Humanism second because you'll need the religious unity, tolerance, and -unrest.

Right now its 1520 in my game, I have Tibet, all of China north of the Yellow River and a stripe down the east coast and west border, Korea, and all the horde lands east of the center or Uzebek, which I rush to because Muscovy crushed Novgorod and took expansion first. I sniped their colony and it finally completed after like 60 years because I didn't have a colonist.
 

Kirikano

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Oh and don't form Manchu, you lose the awesome Horde CBs and Chinese tech won't be much of an upgrade until past mil tech 10. If you use a ton of cavalry and meatshield infantry mercs, and artillery, you can still crush other nations even well past that point.

My goals for then next 100 years - Crush Muscovy, get to Sweden and possibly westernize (although I might put it off to try and get that sweet sweet Jesuit even that gives -20% tech cost for rest of campaign that you can only get when tagged as Manchu). Eat the rest of China. Start eating into India. Grab Exploration and block off the Siberian coast, grab as much of Indonesia as possible. Crush Timmy (seriously, **** them, they jumped on me when I was attacking Tibet and Ming, and made a beeline for my unfinished Muscovy blocking colony. I was panic spamming mercs.)