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Frostschaden

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Al-Shahrastani, in his "Book of Sects and Creeds", wrote about Jews that accepted Christ as the Messiah living around Mecca and the Hejaz area in general, so it's not much of a stretch to consider these to be remnants of the historical Ebionites that lived in that area prior to Islam.
About 50 years earlier the Iberian rabbi Benjamin of Tudela also encountered Ebionites in north-western Arabia.
Marvelous!

I was googling, and found articles relating to Jewish Christians in history on Brill, but my university only has access to the Islamic content for some reason. Drats.

The Islamic content does include an article on the Ṣābiʾa, who might be related to the post-Temple Elcesaites and Ebionites. I might simply call the heresy "Judaeo-Christian" to encompass all these groups.
 

cybrxkhan

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On the topic of heresies, you might consider adding the Samaritans. I just added them in for lulz in VIET, although they're still alive and well today (though quite limited in number).
 

Frostschaden

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On the topic of heresies, you might consider adding the Samaritans. I just added them in for lulz in VIET, although they're still alive and well today (though quite limited in number).
The Samaritans have been in this mod from the start, but not as a heresy. They have different localisations, and their own high priest (who should be located in Nablus, but Nablus is a city holding, so his screen shows Jerusalem). Perhaps I could solve that with exonyms...
 

cybrxkhan

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The Samaritans have been in this mod from the start, but not as a heresy. They have different localisations, and their own high priest (who should be located in Nablus, but Nablus is a city holding, so his screen shows Jerusalem). Perhaps I could solve that with exonyms...
Oh, right. I should really carefully read mod descriptions more often. :)
 

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Marvelous!

I was googling, and found articles relating to Jewish Christians in history on Brill, but my university only has access to the Islamic content for some reason. Drats.

The Islamic content does include an article on the Ṣābiʾa, who might be related to the post-Temple Elcesaites and Ebionites. I might simply call the heresy "Judaeo-Christian" to encompass all these groups.
If you make Jewish-Christians, why don't you call them Netzarim (which was the proper name for them)? Also you could make their head, 'Ha-Alfua'.
 

Frostschaden

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If you make Jewish-Christians, why don't you call them Netzarim (which was the proper name for them)? Also you could make their head, 'Ha-Alfua'.
Because there are a bunch of independent similar sects that I want to encompass, including the Ebionites and the Nazarenes, and perhaps even the Judaizers.
 

Prince de Conti

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Because there are a bunch of independent similar sects that I want to encompass, including the Ebionites and the Nazarenes, and perhaps even the Judaizers.
Interesting, although the term Judaizers may be a slur developed by Hellenistic Jews or perhaps later Christians for Jewish-Christians.

So do you plan on going for a Mother faith, then filling in heresy branches; or will you make them heresies of Rabbinic?
 
Last edited:

Frostschaden

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Interesting, although the term Judaizers may be a slur developed by Hellenistic Jews or perhaps later Christians for Jewish-Christians.
Yeah, that's why I put "perhaps even". :p

So do you plan on going for a Mother faith, then filling in heresy branches; or will you make them heresies of Rabbinic?
I'm just going for a basic Judaeo-Christian heresy of Rabbinic Judaism for the moment. The heydays of the Jewish-Christians are over by this point. For Karaite Judaism, I'm going for a generic "Messianism", which would represent people other than Jesus claiming to be the Messiah, David Alroy and Moses Botarel for example. Or perhaps I should switch them around, not sure yet.
 

Frostschaden

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I've released a new version. The exilarch now have proper succession, with a downside being that their liege can inherit the title. Religious heads don't seem to be able to marry, so I've coded in some generic spouses and gave them a fertility boost until I can find a solution.

To represent the prestige associated with their line, the Exilarchs have the "Son of David" trait, with an opinion bonus for Muslims, which should ensure decent relations with their liege.
 

imperiumiv

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I've done some research on this. Most of the Nazarenes melted away after a few centuries. They're seems to have been a boatload of them in the 5th century, but they probably ceased to exist as any more than individuals after the Islamic conquests, being overwhelmed by differing Semitic Identities. The Ebionites were technically a heresy of the Nazarenes I believe. They rejected probably most of the New Testament texts, and probably had some sectarian gospels of their own. The Nazarenes believed in a "proto-Trinity" ( probably not a trinity, but a "binity")concept of the second Temple period, which was rejected between 90-200 AD by the Rabbinic councils. They were thus not well liked by anyone, neither mainstream Jews nor Catholic/Orthodox. Jerome is kind of a strange character. He seems to have not considered them true "Christians" and had some sort of mild anti-Semitism. But he also went to a Nazarene community and asked their permission to copy a Hebrew gospel, which Jerome actually believed was more authoritative than the Greek language ones. He only copied part of it and IIRC it is lost now.
 

Alex Kamal

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The Krymchaks weren't Karaites, actually. They're another ethnic group comparable to Sephardim or Ashkenazim, and by your mod, they practiced Rabbinic Judaism. There were many Karaites who lived in the Crimea, but they actually only showed up in 1397. You could probably get away with combining them with the Khazars, especially as the Krymchaks had a tendency to absorb any other Jews who showed up in the region.

Here's a PDF on them, courtesy of my family, who probably make up a large percentage of the remaining Krymchacks in the world.

Another idea which you could incorporate (which would give more flavor for Christian rulers) would be to set up disputations like the famous Disputation of Barcelona. Simply put, you would pit your court chaplain against the most prominent rabbi available. Whichever religion won would gain spiritual authority. The fewer restrictions you put, the more likely the rabbi is to win. The main factor, of course, would be their respective learning skills. On the extreme end, if you get a result like Barcelona (which was comparable to what happens when you send the local boxing champion in against Mohammed Ali), there could even be an option for the ruler to convert to Judaism.
 
Last edited:

Frostschaden

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The Krymchaks weren't Karaites, actually. They're another ethnic group comparable to Sephardim or Ashkenazim, and by your mod, they practiced Rabbinic Judaism. There were many Karaites who lived in the Crimea, but they actually only showed up in 1397. You could probably get away with combining them with the Khazars, especially as the Krymchaks had a tendency to absorb any other Jews who showed up in the region.

Here's a PDF on them, courtesy of my family, who probably make up a large percentage of the remaining Krymchacks in the world.
It was Jordarkelf who made them a Karaite heresy. My mod didn't use that code, so no problem there.

Thanks for the PDF. :)
 

Frostschaden

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Update soon?
Not that much has changed, so yeah. I don't have the time to playtest it thoroughly right now, so I hope everything works.

I've added holy sites, given the Jews the religious vestments of the Zoroastrians and removed my Khazar culture, since Vanilla has one now.
 

gorillacakes

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Brilliant stuff Frostschaden, now I can finally have a decent Khazar game! Bedankt hé!
 

Frostschaden

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Oh, and to fix the Karaite Exilarchy reverting to the Muslims, one can add this event:
Code:
character_event = {
    id = 1000109107
    desc = "I can no longer lead the Karaites, not being of their religion"
    picture = GFX_evt_throne_room
    border = GFX_event_normal_frame_religion
	
	only_rulers = yes
    only_men = yes
    
    trigger = {
        has_landed_title = d_exilarch 
        NOT = { religion = karaite }
    }

    option = {
        name = "Ok"
		d_exilarch = {
			destroy_landed_title = THIS
		}
    }
}
It's from the Prince and the Thane. When my exams are over, I'll code my own event.

I'm also thinking of removing the added traits, to increase compatibility with other mods. They can probably be replaced with dynasties.