Judaism should get conversion events too.

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Grand Historian

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It’s not finished though which is why it hasn’t been shown in any detail.

Do you know for certain it's not finished? It could be that they're just going down the map in something approximating geographic order for the military traditions: first were the Barbarian traditions, then the Italic, the African, then the Greek, then the Levant. Arabia was today. It seems like India will be coming within the next week or two.
 

Thure

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Do you know for certain it's not finished? It could be that they're just going down the map in something approximating geographic order for the military traditions: first were the Barbarian traditions, then the Italic, the African, then the Greek, then the Levant. Arabia was today. It seems like India will be coming within the next week or two.

Steinwallen said in his German video about the map that he was allowed to show the whole map except India, because it wasn't ready to be shown yet.
 

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Steinwallen said in his German video about the map that he was allowed to show the whole map except India, because it wasn't ready to be shown yet.
What video was that?
 

Wagonlitz

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Thanks.
There's an English video about the map specifically that says the same thing. Google should find it easily.
He doesn't really talk that much. Mainly just telling about why he made it and why he's showing nothing east of the Caspian.
 

Surimi

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Revisionist wordplay is antithetical to the social sciences in general and the scientific method in particular.

So, this is a really basic historiographic point which you seem to have dismissed as "wordplay".

The term "religion" does not exist in its modern form in classical antiquity. It originates in Latin as the term religio, which it describes the civic responsibilities of a Roman citizen.

If you're going to talk about various "religions" in the ancient world, you need to define what actually constitutes a religion in this context, because it isn't self-evident. None of these people used the modern term "religion", none of them believed in the concept of a "religion" as you or I would understand it. It is absolutely relevant to ask what you are using to define a "religion", or to define who belongs or does not belong to a "religion", under those circumstances, because for all we know it could just be an anachronism, or a vague generalisation.

It's sad because your actual point is broadly interesting and clearly well researched, but dismissing legitimate terminological questions as "wordplay" comes across as anti-intellectual. Taking a critical approach to language is not just compatible with the scientific method, it's hugely important.
 

Sarog

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I but the way he simplifies things and overgeneralizes groups and religions is just ridiculous. his attemps to explain such huge topics can only fail. terms like "polytheist", "christianity" and "religion" itself are highly influenced by a christian world view.

I'm amazed at this. In the same breath you criticize someone for simplification and over-generalization... and then go to say that word X indicates wrong-think worldview Y, implying that this is grounds for dismissing him out of hand. What fragile, partisan thinking.
 

Grand Historian

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I just informed myself a little about your sources. Some of these authors seem to be "weird". As this rodney stark guy seems to have interesting thesis, but the way he simplifies things and overgeneralizes groups and religions is just ridiculous. his attemps to explain such huge topics can only fail..

Since Rodney Stark has stated in a number of interviews and the intro to one of the books I've cited that he's an agnostic and "incapable of religious faith", I'm going to assume the extent of your 'informing' was a quick google search rather than actually reading the books of his I used. If you had I doubt you'd be saying he overgeneralizes groups as well.

terms like "polytheist", "christianity" and "religion" itself are highly influenced by a christian world view

You a): say this like it immediately invalidates any point his research could make and b): say this without an ounce of self-awareness.

my head hurts from reading this. what do you mean by "better organized"? Did u ever read books about the so called polytheistic religions in antiquity? using market logic based on wrong assumptions wont bring you anywhere.

>dismisses someone for apparent oversimplification
>'your worldview is wrong, I'm right, no questions'

So, this is a really basic historiographic point which you seem to have dismissed as "wordplay".

This would be a valid criticism if he actually provided a definition of his own rather than just throwing out a nebulous criticism in a thinly veiled attempt to dismiss my points. The same with his assertion that 'nuance' is needed - whatever that is supposed to be. (He certainly wasn't nuanced when it came to 19th century theologians anyhow.)

The term "religion" does not exist in its modern form in classical antiquity. It originates in Latin as the term religio, which it describes the civic responsibilities of a Roman citizen.

Yes, which is one of the reasons why I subscribe to Stark's thesis that religion consists of religious practices.

f you're going to talk about various "religions" in the ancient world, you need to define what actually constitutes a religion in this context, because it isn't self-evident. None of these people used the modern term "religion", none of them believed in the concept of a "religion" as you or I would understand it. It is absolutely relevant to ask what you are using to define a "religion", or to define who belongs or does not belong to a "religion", under those circumstances, because for all we know it could just be an anachronism, or a vague generalisation.

Ignoring that Philo and Josephus would likely have very similar concepts to religion to the one you are implicitly denouncing, this is all a very grand way of waxing philosophical rather than actually making a point against any of mine. Even if I was objectively wrong on my conceptions of religion - and it would be amusing to see you prove me objectively wrong after writing up a paragraph on how the definition of religion is subjective - it still wouldn't change the fact that many people were joining or converting to exclusive cults and Judaism.

It's sad because your actual point is broadly interesting and clearly well researched, but dismissing legitimate terminological questions as "wordplay" comes across as anti-intellectual.

I like how you build up a strawman out of a non-sequitur you went on just to tar me with the boogeyman label of 'anti-intellectual'. I'm sorry my demands for concrete definitions weren't big-brained enough for you.

Taking a critical approach to language is not just compatible with the scientific method, it's hugely important.

Science is not subjective. If it was it wouldn't be science, it would be an art.
 

Surimi

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This would be a valid criticism if he actually provided a definition of his own rather than just throwing out a nebulous criticism in a thinly veiled attempt to dismiss my points.

Well, that's kind of the problem isn't it. There is no perfect definition, that's what happens when you start imposing anachronistic discourse onto historical societies. Ideally, you wouldn't do that all, but if doing so is useful then it is kind of on you to fit the round peg into the square hole.

The same with his assertion that 'nuance' is needed - whatever that is supposed to be.

So, calling for nuance in this case means stressing the need for particularism rather than universalism in the description of ideas and concepts.

A common problem with older sources (like 19th century theologians) is that, in keeping with intellectual trends of the time, they often sought to create general rules from particular circumstances, such as creating categories like "oriental religions" to describe huge swathes of very different worldviews, beliefs and practices as if they possess an underlying similarity by virtue of the general region of the planet in which they emerged.

Yes, which is one of the reasons why I subscribe to Stark's thesis that religion consists of religious practices.

What's a "religious practice" though? What separates religious practices from a cultural practices in a society where "religious" concepts are considered normal facts of life?

As you point out quite correctly in the opening post, the Greco/Roman deities are very different from the deity of Judaism or Christianity in that they possess human characteristics and don't demand explicit worship, merely recognition and propitiation. Now, follow through on this for a second, what does this mean for the concept of religious practice? Is theatre a religious practice? Are festivals a religious practice? Is citizenship a religious practice?
 

hkrommel

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his is all a very grand way of waxing philosophical rather than actually making a point against any of mine.

I mean to be fair that is a large portion of academic discourse. The drive for tenure and unproductive research output is incredibly damaging IMHO.

Well, that's kind of the problem isn't it. There is no perfect definition, that's what happens when you start imposing anachronistic discourse onto historical societies. Ideally, you wouldn't do that all, but if doing so is useful then it is kind of on you to fit the round peg into the square hole.

There's a huge difference between legitimately disputing an ambiguous term and dismissing an argument wholesale by demanding a detailed definition of a generally-understood term. You need a "so what" to your arguments here. Present an alternative definition of religion and state why that affects the thesis. Otherwise it's mere nitpicking.

A common problem with older sources (like 19th century theologians) is that, in keeping with intellectual trends of the time, they often sought to create general rules from particular circumstances, such as creating categories like "oriental religions" to describe huge swathes of very different worldviews, beliefs and practices as if they possess an underlying similarity by virtue of the general region of the planet in which they emerged.

A common problem with newer commentators (like 21st century internet denizens) is that, in keeping with the intellectual trends of the time, they often seek to create general rules from particular circumstances, such as creating categories like "older sources" to describe huge swathes of very different writers, sources, and scholars as if they possess an underlying similarity of usefulness by virtue of not being contemporary.
 
Last edited:

Surimi

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There's a huge difference between legitimately disputing an ambiguous term and dismissing an argument wholesale by demanding a detailed definition of a generally-understood term.

Okay, so this isn't really a point about definitions.

I'm not asking for a comprehensive definition of religion because I somehow don't understand what a religion is. I'm pointing out that there is no trans-historical or trans-cultural category of religion, and thus that the definition of religion which we "generally understand" is actually kind of irrelevant to the context and the people we're talking about, who did not have the same definition of religion (or indeed any definition of religion).

To quote anthropologist Talal Asad, emphasis mine.

"My argument, I must stress, is not just that religious symbols are intimately linked to social life (and so change with it), or that they usually support dominant political power (and occasionally oppose it). It is that different kinds of practice and discourse are intrinsic to the field in which religious representations (like any representation) acquire their identity and their truthfulness. From this it does not follow that the meanings of religious practices and utterances are to be sought in social phenomena, but only that their possibility and their authoritative status are to be explained as products of historically distinctive disciplines and forces. The anthropological student of particular religions should therefore begin from this point, in a sense unpacking the comprehensive concept which he or she translates as "religion" into heterogeneous elements according to its historical character."

In other words, the anthropological approach to religion (although the same applies to a historical approach) cannot simply assume the "generally understood" definition holds true in the field, because it is only "generally understood" to us as modern people with similar cultural reference points, not to the people we're actually talking about. If our goal as historians or anthropologists is to understand those people, then we can't simply pretend that they lived by or adhered to our category of religion, because they didn't.

You need a "so what" to your arguments here. Present an alternative definition of religion and state why that affects the thesis. Otherwise it's mere nitpicking.

Also, one thing I think I made clear is that I don't actually disagree with the "thesis". I disagree with the way that the category of "religion" is treated as a self-evident feature of a historical society which lacked a concept of religion, but I think in a general sense the thesis works. If we assume (for our own heuristic purposes, or even just for the purposes of fitting a confusing world into easily understood game systems) that participating in Jewish rituals makes someone of the Jewish "religion", then the OP is probably correct that the Jewish diaspora lead to people "converting" to Judaism.

What prompted my response was seeing a legitimate criticism of the method used to arrive at this claim dismissed as "wordplay" because it references, correctly, the fact that the category of "religion" does not exist in the time period under discussion. Apparently though, pointing that out violates some principle of scientific objectivity.. who knew?

A common problem with newer commentators (like 21st century internet denizens) is that, in keeping with the intellectual trends of the time, they often seek to create general rules from particular circumstances, such as creating categories like "older sources" to describe huge swathes of very different writers, sources, and scholars as if they possess an underlying similarity by virtue of not being contemporary.

You are aware, I hope, that a tendency is not a general rule.
 
Last edited:

hkrommel

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In other words, the anthropological approach to religion (although the same applies to a historical approach) cannot simply assume the "generally understood" definition holds true in the field, because it is only "generally understood" to us as modern people with similar cultural reference points, not to the people we're actually talking about. If our goal as historians or anthropologists is to understand those people, then we can't simply pretend that they lived by or adhered to our category of religion, because they didn't.

Well since this is a 21st century English-language forum, not The Forum, I always operate under the assumption that the author is trying to communicate something to the audience at hand. As such, it's completely irrelevant that ancient society completely lacked a concept of religion as some sort of systematic belief system in the supernatural (and I would dispute that claim in the first place). We're not trying to understand them or communicate with them, but communicate amongst ourselves to categorize and analyze them from our perspective for the purposes of a videogame.

Also, one thing I also think I made clear is that I don't actually disagree with the "thesis". I disagree with the way that the category of "religion" is treated as a self-evident feature of a historical society which lacked a concept of religion, but I think in a general sense the thesis works. If we assume (for our own heuristic purposes, or even just for the purposes of fitting a confusing world into easily understood game systems) that participating in Jewish rituals makes someone of the Jewish "religion", then the OP is probably correct that the Jewish diaspora lead to people "converting" to Judaism.

See above.

What prompted my response was seeing a legitimate criticism of the method used to arrive at this claim dismissed as "wordplay" because it references, correctly, the fact that the category of "religion" does not exist in the time period under discussion. Apparently though, pointing that out violates some principle of scientific objectivity.

Again I think applying your requirements can strike one as wordplay. We're categorizing for the purposes of discussing videogame mechanics, not seeking to understand ancient societies in their own terms. By our category of religion, we can understand religious practices in the ancient world to an extent sufficient to make the claims OP did and to evaluate those claims. A deeper analysis is unnecessary, and I would argue unhelpful as it would simply obfuscate rather than elucidate the matter at hand.

You are aware, I hope, that a tendency is not a general rule.

That depends entirely on the frequency of the tendency. I just am quite bothered with critiques of different methodology of study simply because it's not what the critic learned at university, or the authors the critic happens to read are of a different school of thought. Certainly there are valid times to employ this sort of argumentation (phrenology, for example), but the pendulum has swung much too far in the other direction and the constant usage of these sorts of critiques is damaging to discourse generally and academic discourse in general, thus as a normative matter it's inadvisable to engage in such wholesale dismissals. If there's any place where it's crucial to assess the validity of a particular employment of a particular method by a particular author on a case-by-case basis, it's with historiography.
 

SpeedKatMcNasty

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my head hurts from reading this. what do you mean by "better organized"? Did u ever read books about the so called polytheistic religions in antiquity? using market logic based on wrong assumptions wont bring you anywhere.
A perfect example is the First Council of Nicaea in 325. Their were thousands, even tens of thousands of different branches of Christianity spread all over Europe and the Middle East at the time. Many of these branches had significant differences, yet they all believed in one thing, Jesus's teachings. Because of this shared common ground, the various groups were able to for the most part settle their differences and unite under a common banner, laying the foundations of authority for the centralized Catholic church.

Why were Christians able to centralize power over the course of a few hundred years when polytheistic religions, often given thousands or tens of thousands of years, were not? Because of the innate simplicity and efficiency of belief in one God instead one thousand. Instead of millions of different nuances to argue over in a polytheistic religion, theirs only a few dozen. This brings people together easier and facilitates communication. It also helps in the creation of a "Holy Book" which helps the religion spread, as writing about one God who has ten rules (ten commandments) is easier than writing about a hundred Gods with ten rules each.

More efficient and better organized
 

aantia

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Why were Christians able to centralize power over the course of a few hundred years when polytheistic religions, often given thousands or tens of thousands of years, were not? Because of the innate simplicity and efficiency of belief in one God instead one thousand. Instead of millions of different nuances to argue over in a polytheistic religion, theirs only a few dozen. This brings people together easier and facilitates communication. It also helps in the creation of a "Holy Book" which helps the religion spread, as writing about one God who has ten rules (ten commandments) is easier than writing about a hundred Gods with ten rules each.
More efficient and better organized

I disagree with this for several reasons:
1) Christianity is far from united, and never has been, the Nicene Creed notwithstanding. Even if you ignore the admittedly minor (in the modern day) Christian sects that don't follow it, the Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant churches would certainly not considered themselves under a centralised power.
2) There are plenty of historical examples of polytheistic religions with a central religious authority. For one very relevant example: the government of Rome was explicitly in charge of the practise of the state religion. The authority of *the Catholic Pope* over the city of Rome derives from his title as Pontifex Maximus, which was originally the highest priest in the Roman Empire. For other centralised polytheistic religions, see Zoroastrianism and traditional Chinese religion (both of which shared with the Roman religion their status of state religions in their home countries).
3) Holy Books certainly pre-date Christianity, by a long way. And the Bible, from my last reading of it, has a lot more content than the ten commandments. And Islam and Judaism (and Anglicanism, come to think of it), have more than one holy book. I'm not Catholic and don't know that much about its actual practise, so I don't know whether they just use the Bible or not.
 

Faeelin

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There are Jews in cities all around the Mediterranean at start already, as you mention the Jewish diaspora was something that was already well under way.
As for outright conversion, we will see, it could not really hit with the frequency of the Buddhist ones. :)

While granted it postdates the game slightly, It does seem like there was a rather successful Jewish missionary faith around now...
 

Tisifoni12

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Which Judaism, for if you read Josephus there are three versions of Judaism at his time with a range of beliefs; pharisees, saducees and essenes . . .
 

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Which Judaism, for if you read Josephus there are three versions of Judaism at his time with a range of beliefs; pharisees, saducees and essenes . . .

The Pharisees, Saducees and Essenes were organizations within Judaism, not separate Judaisms themselves. The Saducees only controlled the temple proper and served as the administrative apparatus and aristocracy: their religious significance had been neutered for the overwhelming majority of the Jewish population, especially that of the Diaspora (and was most certainly aided by their own agnosticism towards many aspects of the religion they represented). The Essenes something resembling a monastic order, with most of their members either being hermits or part of the Zealots - they didn't have significant sway over the Jewish population outside of Judea either, and certainly didn't attract a popular following. It was the Pharisees and their synagogues that formed the nucleus of religious life for virtually all Jews in this period and virtually all to follow. The situation was not unlike the Medieval Catholic church, in fact: a very worldly church hierarchy at the top that is controlled by a few aristocratic families from primarily one geographical area, a larger number of high-intensity monastic organizations opposite to them, and then the majority of the laity elsewhere.
 

Tisifoni12

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But they were more separate than say different 'aspects' of Catholicism. One of the groups seems to have believed in reincarnation (Buddhist or Brahman influence), the Essenes in a heaven (though one only for celibate men). The impression I have is that there were significant differences between them and that there may not have been much dialogue. Quite when those variations developed or why I don't know.
 

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But they were more separate than say different 'aspects' of Catholicism.

I don't think you realize just how disparate the Catholic church and most religions in general can get in their beliefs. Also, the term Josephus uses to describe the three is "philosophical sects" (War of the Jews, Chapter 8, Paragraph 2, Verse 119). People of the day saw them as all being different Jewish denominations, and the overwhelming majority of scholars share that opinion.

One of the groups seems to have believed in reincarnation (Buddhist or Brahman influence), the Essenes in a heaven (though one only for celibate men).

Both the Pharisees and Essenes believed in most things associated with Judaism today, the Essenes just took their requirements and observances of the law to the extreme. The Sadducees did not believe in an afterlife, and in general were nominal with their Judaism, but did not claim to belong to another religion.