Judaism should get conversion events too.

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Grand Historian

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While Buddhism has been confirmed to have events that allow for pops to randomly switch to it as a religion, this has only prompted a question for me: will the most evangelistic religion of the game gain similar events to represent its unparalleled growth in the period that Imperator covers? I am, of course, referring to Judaism.

This assertion may seem odd or even antithetical to many readers, but I am confident that, once I have finished making my case, I will have sufficiently demonstrated that Judaism was a period abnormality beyond being monotheistic and deserves to be treated as such - or, at the very least, get events similar to Buddhism. Before we can begin in full, however, context of the Judaism in the time Imperator begins at is needed; by 304 BC, an independent Jewish state in Judea had not existed for nearly three centuries, and there was already a large Jewish diaspora across much of the eastern world. The largest expatriate communities currently were in Babylon, Egypt and across Aramaea (Adolf von Harnack estimated that Syria and Egypt were both estimated to house a million Jews on their own1), all having arisen owing to the collapse of the Jewish states of Israel and Judah, but there were plenty of smaller communities spread across the Mediterranean and Middle East: even well before Alexander conquered most of the known world there was already notable community of Jews in Athens, to speak nothing of those in Ethiopia or Arabia. This trend towards diaspora would only continue to grow as the Greek world solidified itself around the Mediterranean; almost invariably these communities formed as migrant Jewish merchants and craftsmen settled down, but some notable exceptions existed (such as Antioch's diasporan community; initially formed by Jewish veterans of the Seleucid army who were settled in the fortress-city, or the Elephantine community in Egypt). It was in this Hellenized and later Greco-Roman environment that two very large and important trends in the Jewish community began: the increasing Hellenization of Jewish thought and communities, and the emergence of a fringe Judaism. An explanation of the former is necessary for the latter and its consequences, and so I will begin there.

As Alexander's successors would solidify their hold over the eastern Mediterranean in the decades to come, combined with innumerable Greek colonies and city-states in the western half, Koine would emerge as something approximating the Lingua Franca of antiquity. The consequences of this would be felt perhaps most sharply by the Jewish communities scattered around that great lake, as it would eventually reach the point that many scholars agree that most Jews worldwide spoke Greek as a first language and few could even speak Hebrew as a secondary language2: even in Judea proper many Jews spoke Greek as an everyday language (and many even had Greek names - for example, Antigonus of Sokho; Pharisee, possible progenitor of the Sadducees, and the first noted Jew to have a Hellenic name. He was active in the immediate decades following Imperator's start and possibly even during 304 BC). The demands of this linguistically divided demographic soon reached the extent that the Alexandrine Jews, who spoke Greek as a first language, would work to translate the Torah into Greek: the Mosaic Law was the first, likely only decades after Imperator's start (sometime in mid 3rd century BC), followed by the rest across the remaining BC centuries. This would have larger consequences than just allowing an expatriate community to read their religious texts: it opened the way for theological and philosophical intercourse with the wider Hellenic (and later Roman) world. This would be a two-way road. While the influence of Platonic and Aristotelian thought upon Judaism in this period is well known, the main point of interest to this thread is the obscure yet significant amount of gentiles who converted to Judaism.

To put this into context, Judaism was not the only faith to gain significant traction across the Greco-Roman world in Imperator's timeframe: polytheism is notoriously weak when it comes to retaining adherents against exclusive religions, and the malleability and vastness of the Hellenistic pantheon - qualities that only grew as it absorbed the deities of more and more conquered cultures - was particularly fatal. Not only is there virtually no impetus to proselytize in the name of deities who have very human qualities and demand nothing but propitiation, but, in the words of famed sociologist Rodney Stark:

Perhaps the most fundamental aspect of Greco-Roman paganism was its inability to sustain itself by contributions from the rank and file. Most people were involved with too many gods to make significant contributions to any one of them, nor did they feel sufficient basis for doing so. Instead, the primary source of funding for paganism came almost entirely from a few very wealthy donors. As the empire expanded and the number of temples multiplied, the financial burden grew increasingly heavy and donations were divided among an ever-larger throng of gods.

As E. R. Dodds recognized, religious life in the empire suffered from excessive pluralism, from "a bewildering mass of alternatives. There were too many cults, too many mysteries, too many philosophies of life to choose from: you could pile one religious insurance on another, yet not feel safe." Moreover, since no god could effectively demand adherence (let alone exclusive commitment), individuals faced the need and the burden to assemble their own divine portfolio, seeking to balance potential services and to spread the risks, as Dodds noted in his reference to religious insurance. Thus, a rich benefactor in Numidia contributed to temples and shrines honoring "Jove Bazosenus... Mithra, Minerva, Mars Pater, Fortuna Redux, Hercule, Mercury, Aesculapius, and Salus." Ramsay MacMullen reports a man who simultaneously served as a priest in four temples, while many temples served many gods simultaenously.
3

This is to not say polytheism had no credibility in the ancient world: quite to the contrary, in fact, as the Cults of Cybele and Isis - both polytheistic but focusing worship on an exclusive deity - gained massive traction and arguably helped enable the spread of Judaism by normalizing exclusivity. And much like Judaism, both were viewed with suspicion by the established Greco-Roman temple faiths because of the threats they posed to the temple monopolies; such that Cybele (Magna Mater), with its transvestite eunuch priests, would eventually have more temples in the city of Rome than any of the city's traditional gods. The Cult of Isis was even more successful, her devotees swelling only a few decades after gamestart. Its origins as a phenomenon likely have its roots in Manetho's ranking of the gods, where she was placed equal to Serapis, meaning all temples devoted to Serapis had sections to Isis. Regardless of the origins, Isis' popularity became uncontestable in the polytheistic world: in the city of Rome, she had twice as many temples as Cybele (who, despite being kept on the religious peripheries of the state pantheon, was still endorsed by the Roman State) and thrice as many as Jupiter.4 It is also of little coincidence that the Cult of Isis came the closest to monotheism of the pagan cults.

It was in this world of increasingly popular and exclusive oriental religions, transmitted by a common language that Judaism stepped into. This led to a softening of Jewish proscriptions about intermingling with gentiles as the Diaspora expanded: intermarriage was not uncommon with Greeks, most Diaspora communities spoke and worshiped in Greek, and participation in feasts with them was the norm - even the names of pagan deities such as Apollonius and Dionysus were popular. This intermingling with the gentile world had a predictable effect: many gentiles began converting to Judaism. This was not done solely through the usual method of social networks: some Jews intentionally missionized to the Greeks, such that in 139 BC an edict was issued to expel the Jews from the city of Rome on the charges that they were attempting "to introduce their own rites" and "infect Roman morals".5 Josephus echoed this sentiment, saying "The multitude of mankind itself have had a great inclination for a long time to follow our religious observances."6, and Philo also made statements about the numerous converts to Judaism; both agreed that the practice of inviting gentiles to attend services at synagogues were common. The extent of Jewish growth, both through fertility and conversion, was such that there were an estimated number of anywhere from 4 to 9 million Jews in the Roman Empire at the time of Augustus' order for a census: this is out of a total population of 60 million7, which is a significant proportion of the empire regardless of which end of the estimate is more accurate. These weren't social pariahs without any power either; Cassius Dio wrote that in 95 AD Domitian executed his cousin, amongst a number of other prominent Romans for having either converted to Judaism or shown sympathies for Yahweh worship ("drifted into Jewish ways" is the actual term used - this distinction will be extrapolated)8. However, there were two major bars on full conversion to Judaism: circumcision, and the inescapable link between the Jewish faith and the Jewish ethnicity. This created a periphery on a periphery: a sort of class of 'God-fearers'; those who, while not fully accepting Jewish law (including circumcision and prohibitions on certain foods) and thus not fully converting, still worshipped Yahweh. In fact, these God-fearers feature quite prominently in the Biblical Book of Acts: take for example the Centurion Cornelius, traditionally held as the first gentile convert, who was described in Acts as being "devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly."9, or Paul's sermon in Pisidian Antioch, which opened with "Men of Israel, and you that fear God, listen.".10

I believe the evidence is apparent enough that Judaism, as a religious force, deserves to be represented with similar events that are granted to Buddhism; the conditions for its historical spread are already set in place to such an extent they would feasibly be impossible to revert in time even with player intervention. The way I could see said events working are such: in Hellenistic port-cities with a sufficient civilization level (representing their cosmopolitan nature) without a Jewish pop in them, there would be a MTTH event to spawn a citizen or freeman Israeli-Jewish pop representing the growth of a diaspora community. Subsequently, any city with a Jewish pop in it has a chance event to convert a non-Jewish pop to Judaism. This follow-up event wouldn't be able to trigger more than thrice per city and would similarly require an even higher level of civilization/pop density than that of the initial event that spawns Judaism to prevent an event spam.

With all that said, I'll just conclude with sources:

1: von Harnack, Adolf: Ausbreitung des Christentums
2: Stark, Rodney: Cities of God
3: Ibid.
4: Beard, John North and Simon Price: Religions of Rome, Vol 1: A History
5: Smallwood, E. Mary: The Jews Under Roman Rule: From Pompey to Diocletian
6: Josephus: The Jewish War
7: Stark, Rodney: Discovering God
8: Dio, Cassius: Historia Romana
9: Acts 10:2
10: Acts 13:6
 

Nikolai

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Very good read, GH. :) Would be grand to have this in the game somehow.
 

Grand Historian

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Nikolai

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Thank you! Took me more time to research than write, actually. Hopefully @Trin Tragula will hear our plea.
Trin seems to be reading all, and he's positive to feedback, especially well founded one. So yeah, I think he might listen. If it's not already in the game of course. ;)
 

Trin Tragula

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There are Jews in cities all around the Mediterranean at start already, as you mention the Jewish diaspora was something that was already well under way.
As for outright conversion, we will see, it could not really hit with the frequency of the Buddhist ones. :)
 

Grand Historian

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There are Jews in cities all around the Mediterranean at start already, as you mention the Jewish diaspora was something that was already well under way.
As for outright conversion, we will see, it could not really hit with the frequency of the Buddhist ones. :)

Good to know! Speaking of, what would be the frequency of the Buddhist events?
 

Ezumiyr

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The big problem is that this vision of "oriental religions" (including judaism) has been an obsolete one for easily 10 years now (and much, much more when it comes to sources like von Harnack, who is NOT a scientific source, but an epistemic or theologic one at best) .
You have to interrogate your notion of what "religion" means in this era, and stop using modern theology as a source. Religion is an anthropologic topic, and cannot be done seriously if you're using only obscure sources. Peter Schäfer, Mireille Hadas-lebel, Katell Berthelot etc are much more reliable sources on that matter.

In short, a lot of things I read there are highly speculative or just false. It is true that there were jewish conversions in the antiquity, but Judaism doesn't constitute an "anomaly" (and polytheism isn't inherently weak either, that sounds awfully like it is written by some 19th-century theologian), and it has to be nuanced - primarly because we only have very few textual sources, and the archaeological ones don't really help for various reasons. What we basically know is that there was a jewish diaspora (but still much more present in the east than the west).
 

Grand Historian

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The big problem is that this vision of "oriental religions" (including judaism) has been an obsolete one for easily 10 years now (and much, much more when it comes to sources like von Harnack, who is NOT a scientific source, but an epistemic or theologic one at best) .

This is objectively false. von Harnack was one of the first in this field to use quantifiable data to begin with, having gathered large quantities of what data was available at the time to try to accurately and scientifically reconstruct the growth and spread of Christianity and Judaism. In fact, von Harnack was criticized by his peers for being too scientific. That von Harnack was also a theologian has no impact on the veracity of his statements: that you say otherwise does more to betray your credibility than his.

This is the intellectual equivalent of claiming that because Georges Lemaitre was a priest the idea that the universe is expanding is only credible in theological circles.

You have to interrogate your notion of what "religion" means in this era, and stop using modern theology as a source.

Revisionist wordplay is antithetical to the social sciences in general and the scientific method in particular. I also find it entertaining that you seem to think that citing von Harnack's estimation there were a million Jews in Syria and Egypt each is a statement on the nature of God.

Religion is an anthropologic topic,

The anthropology of religion is an anthropological topic, the sociology of religion is a sociological topic, the theology of religion is a theological topic. As these disciplines also happen to share topics and information is frequently passed between scholars of each discipline. I'm so glad we've established this.

and cannot be done seriously if you're using only obscure sources.

Yes; clearly, Rodney Stark - one of the most respected sociologists in the world - is an obscure source. I'm certain that no one has heard of Josephus, Philo or Cassius Dio. Obviously the Bible isn't a reliable source on the state of Judaism at the time either. And we absolutely didn't just have a discussion about von Harnack.

Peter Schäfer, Mireille Hadas-lebel, Katell Berthelot etc are much more reliable sources on that matter.

"To prove that you can't be respected if you're going to use sources I think are obscure, let me bring up three equally obscure scholars, only one of which has regularly been translated into English."

This reads much less like a denunciation of the reliability of my sources and more like you disliking the conclusions they drew or helped to draw and bringing up some from the opposite camps.

In short, a lot of things I read there are highly speculative or just false.

I like how you've consistently made assertions without providing specific examples.

but Judaism doesn't constitute an "anomaly"

Name another prominent Mediterranean monotheism that wasn't Zoroastrism (and even that's debatable). And I don't mean a polytheism that just held one god above the rest of a pantheon as supreme.

(and polytheism isn't inherently weak either, that sounds awfully like it is written by some 19th-century theologian),

Yes, those evil 19th century theologians. If it weren't for them then all the world's scholarly problems would be fixed.

and it has to be nuanced

There's that wordplay again.

- primarly because we only have very few textual sources, and the archaeological ones don't really help for various reasons.

Unfortunately a wide and distinguished array of scholars would beg to differ with your belief that archaeological evidence is useless in the pursuit of understanding the ancients. I believe the term Stark used for this school of thought is "learned nonsense".
 

vyshan

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Being that I am a Hellenic Polytheist, I take strong offense at the "Polytheism is inherently weaker then Monotheism bit". The conditions as to why people convert to another religion are multifaceted and can't be summed up with such a simple statement like "Montheism is better then Polytheism."
 

cosmeIII

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Being that I am a Hellenic Polytheist, I take strong offense at the "Polytheism is inherently weaker then Monotheism bit". The conditions as to why people convert to another religion are multifaceted and can't be summed up with such a simple statement like "Montheism is better then Polytheism."
He never said that at any point. I'd say that he even defended polytheism on its own right as a valid religion, but one that simply couldn't stand the test of time. The reason that polytheism fell is well explained in the OP post, there were just too many gods to worship due to the Romans' consideration of other gods as valid. Priests dedicated themselves to up to four gods, temples sometimes had to house two gods. The populace generally preferred keeping things simple, which is why the worship of Serapis and Isis spread around the Roman world so much. With one single all-powerful god things are much simpler, you only have to sacrifice to that one god and only fear it instead of one for your home food depot, one for the seas, one for the fields, one for war, etc...

I encourage you to reread the OP.
 

Grand Historian

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Being that I am a Hellenic Polytheist, I take strong offense at the "Polytheism is inherently weaker then Monotheism bit".

Then I'm quite glad I said nothing of the sort:

polytheism is notoriously weak when it comes to retaining adherents against exclusive religions,

This is to not say polytheism had no credibility in the ancient world: quite to the contrary, in fact,


The conditions as to why people convert to another religion are multifaceted and can't be summed up with such a simple statement like "Montheism is better then Polytheism."

This is correct, and I can write entire paragraphs on the sociology behind why the overwhelming amount of conversions throughout history have happened from Polytheism towards Monotheism rather than the other way around, but I'm not here to do that.
 

Nicolaes

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He never said that at any point. I'd say that he even defended polytheism on its own right as a valid religion, but one that simply couldn't stand the test of time. The reason that polytheism fell is well explained in the OP post, there were just too many gods to worship due to the Romans' consideration of other gods as valid. Priests dedicated themselves to up to four gods, temples sometimes had to house two gods. The populace generally preferred keeping things simple, which is why the worship of Serapis and Isis spread around the Roman world so much. With one single all-powerful god things are much simpler, you only have to sacrifice to that one god and only fear it instead of one for your home food depot, one for the seas, one for the fields, one for war, etc...

I encourage you to reread the OP.
I have to agree here. "Neo-Pagan" groups usually limit themselves to either a basic pantheon or even just two or three gods for practical worship, even though we even have rivers and forests with their own particular gods and goddesses.
For example, the Asatrúar believers in the Netherlands mostly focus on Donar and occassionaly Wodan or one other God for specific purposes, while home'grown' gods such as Nehalennia have been abandoned.
 

SpeedKatMcNasty

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Being that I am a Hellenic Polytheist, I take strong offense at the "Polytheism is inherently weaker then Monotheism bit". The conditions as to why people convert to another religion are multifaceted and can't be summed up with such a simple statement like "Montheism is better then Polytheism."
I think this depends on what you mean by "better". A Monotheistic group will be better funded and better organized than an equivalent polytheistic group. The Monotheistic group can focus all its efforts and cash on spreading the word of "god", instead of every member breaking off and spreading the words of thousands of different "gods".

Simple economics and logic would seem to indicate that focusing on the promotion of single product will yield stronger returns than spreading the same amount of effort promoting thousands of different ones.
 

durbal

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Nice write-up, but the fundamental difference is that Judaism already exists in the game at start and pops can already be converted to it. Buddhism, however, doesn’t and so it needs events to force pops and leaders to convert to it.
 

Nikolai

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Nice write-up, but the fundamental difference is that Judaism already exists in the game at start and pops can already be converted to it. Buddhism, however, doesn’t and so it needs events to force pops and leaders to convert to it.
Except Buddhism already exist at game start. ;)
 

Roxas15

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I just informed myself a little about your sources. Some of these authors seem to be "weird". As this rodney stark guy seems to have interesting thesis, but the way he simplifies things and overgeneralizes groups and religions is just ridiculous. his attemps to explain such huge topics can only fail. terms like "polytheist", "christianity" and "religion" itself are highly influenced by a christian world view.

I think this depends on what you mean by "better". A Monotheistic group will be better funded and better organized than an equivalent polytheistic group. The Monotheistic group can focus all its efforts and cash on spreading the word of "god", instead of every member breaking off and spreading the words of thousands of different "gods".

Simple economics and logic would seem to indicate that focusing on the promotion of single product will yield stronger returns than spreading the same amount of effort promoting thousands of different ones.

my head hurts from reading this. what do you mean by "better organized"? Did u ever read books about the so called polytheistic religions in antiquity? using market logic based on wrong assumptions wont bring you anywhere.
 
Last edited:

durbal

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Except Buddhism already exist at game start. ;)

That seems a bit weird then. Any Buddhists around this time would probably be very rare and outside (or on the very outskirts) of the game map, I'd think. I didn't think they'd shown India yet anywhere, so how do you know this?

I guess that's why the events need to exist then. Judaism was decently widespread by this time and Buddhism was still very much in its incipient form.
 

Antediluvian Monster

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That seems a bit weird then. Any Buddhists around this time would probably be very rare and outside (or on the very outskirts) of the game map, I'd think. I didn't think they'd shown India yet anywhere, so how do you know this?

Entire Indian subcontinent is in the game, that has been apparent since the earliest presentations. There was also a trade map mode of it posted at some point.
 

Grand Historian

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That seems a bit weird then. Any Buddhists around this time would probably be very rare and outside (or on the very outskirts) of the game map, I'd think. I didn't think they'd shown India yet anywhere, so how do you know this?

I guess that's why the events need to exist then. Judaism was decently widespread by this time and Buddhism was still very much in its incipient form.

Buddha also died about a century before gamestart.