Judaism is a conversion machine

[Ololorium]

It's probably been posted before, but I only just found out this hilarious thing. I've been playing as Judea and expected problems with conversions because of the -25% conversion speed malus they have in their traditions. After a while I realized that there's no problem at all, in fact almost the whole western and southern Arabia turned Jewish much faster than I anticipated. So I looked at the modifiers closely and found this: since the prophets in Judaism count as "deified rulers", and those give a bonus to conversion speed, Judaism has +60% conversion speed bonus! Combined with +20% culture conversion speed from the direct modifier the religion gets, being Jewish is the best way to assimilate everyone on your path. This is very funny, but probably not intentional. For Christianity it would make sense (or Islam, if the game timeframe is ever going to be extended that far), but Judaism is not really known for it's adoption by everyone.

 

[Rabid]

For some reason Judaism is constructed to be ultra overpowered, it's a bit weird.

Zoroastrian gets a similar benefit to a much lesser degree since Zoroaster is a "deified ruler" as well.

 

[Roy1012]

More overpowered I would say is Egypt, starting out with Alexander the Great, getting Ptolemy deified through the mission tree and getting a 50% off from deified rulers.

 

[DmUa]

Judaism is not really known for it's adoption by everyone.

- actually during timeframe it was know exactly for that reason. Jews under a foreign rule were very active in converting commoners and slaves via direct proselytization. This was one of the reasons why they were actively persecuted by greeks and romans. Also couple of arab and african realms converted to Judaism slightly after game timeframe.

 

[Ololorium]

- actually during timeframe it was know exactly for that reason. Jews under a foreign rule were very active in converting commoners and slaves via direct proselytization. This was one of the reasons why they were actively persecuted by greeks and romans. Also couple of arab and african realms converted to Judaism slightly after game timeframe.

Interestingly, none of this is possible to represent in the game: pops can't convert each other, they can only be converted to the state religion, and I don't think it's possible to convert to Judaism as an independent realm because the Jewish prophets aren't available to other religions and the decision to convert requires to have at least 2 deities from the other pantheon to be present in yours.

 

[DC123456789]

Interestingly, none of this is possible to represent in the game: pops can't convert each other, they can only be converted to the state religion, and I don't think it's possible to convert to Judaism as an independent realm because the Jewish prophets aren't available to other religions and the decision to convert requires to have at least 2 deities from the other pantheon to be present in yours.

That's a tooltip issue; you can still convert to Judaism if half the free pops in your capital are Jewish.

 

[valentin4]

- actually during timeframe it was know exactly for that reason. Jews under a foreign rule were very active in converting commoners and slaves via direct proselytization. This was one of the reasons why they were actively persecuted by greeks and romans. Also couple of arab and african realms converted to Judaism slightly after game timeframe.

Jewish particularism and perceived privileges were cause of antisemitic sentiment like during the Alexandria pogrom under roman rule in -38. I didn't read about active proselytization by jews as a cause of resentment, maybe you have a source

 

[NoUsernamesHere]

Jewish particularism and perceived privileges were cause of antisemitic sentiment like during the Alexandria pogrom under roman rule in -38. I didn't read about active proselytization by jews as a cause of resentment, maybe you have a source

- actually during timeframe it was know exactly for that reason. Jews under a foreign rule were very active in converting commoners and slaves via direct proselytization. This was one of the reasons why they were actively persecuted by greeks and romans. Also couple of arab and african realms converted to Judaism slightly after game timeframe.

I would also like to see a source for the runaway success of Jewish proselytism in this period. Being known for actively proselytizing and being known for having greater-than-normal success at it are two different things.

For Christianity it would make sense (or Islam, if the game timeframe is ever going to be extended that far),

No, it wouldn't actually. Christianity's (and Islam's) success was driven primarily by top-down institutional pressure, not because it was as popular as sliced bread.

EDIT: Also sliced bread is garbage don't @ me.

 

[LiberiusX]

I would also like to see a source for the runaway success of Jewish proselytism in this period. Being known for actively proselytizing and being known for having greater-than-normal success at it are two different things.



No, it wouldn't actually. Christianity's (and Islam's) success was driven primarily by top-down institutional pressure, not because it was as popular as sliced bread.

EDIT: Also sliced bread is garbage don't @ me.

So you’re saying Christianity was unpopular until Constantine forced it on everyone?

 

[NoUsernamesHere]

So you’re saying Christianity was unpopular until Constantine forced it on everyone?

The best estimates we have given the state of the evidence puts Christianity as essentially microscopic until around the middle of the third century, coinciding with the horrific social upheavals of the crisis of the third century, and even the most wildly generous estimates put Christianity at no more than around 10% of the empire's population at the ascension of Constantine. After consolidating power, Constantine began the process of wielding state power on behalf of the institution of Christianity at the expense of all other religions, which would continue and become more extreme up until the empire is fully Christianized and then serve as the model for Christianization outside of the empire, using a variety of political pressures including inducement, coercion, and violence.

 

[Crosswire]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Judaism doesn't get the deified ruler bonuses except for omen effects as an offset to starting with deified rulers, so they don't get the +60% conversion speed.

 

[LiberiusX]

The best estimates we have given the state of the evidence puts Christianity as essentially microscopic until around the middle of the third century, coinciding with the horrific social upheavals of the crisis of the third century, and even the most wildly generous estimates put Christianity at no more than around 10% of the empire's population at the ascension of Constantine. After consolidating power, Constantine began the process of wielding state power on behalf of the institution of Christianity at the expense of all other religions, which would continue and become more extreme up until the empire is fully Christianized and then serve as the model for Christianization outside of the empire, using a variety of political pressures including inducement, coercion, and violence.

So as is often lamented by scholars of Roman history, we know very little about Slaves in the Empire, relative to Patricians. However, it is clear that Christianity was immensely popular with slaves which made up a good portion of the population. The slave population acted as a conduit for converting significant portions of the Roman citizenry over time, well before Constantine became Emperor.

Constantine's most cynical critics state that the only reason he made Christianity the state religion was because much of the power base was rapidly converting to Christianity...not some miracle he witnessed. It’s hard to believe that such a political and military mastermind would make such a weighty decision for the sake of 10% of the population.

I’m pretty sure Constantine also banned gladiatorial games due to the blood sport being incompatible with Christianity. Doesn’t seem like a wise move if only 10% of the population agrees.

As a final point, he did this with relatively little pushback.

 

[Nevars]

Wait, isn't deified ruler bonus don't count the existing deified ruler or at least it suppose to not count so if it is really get that bonus then this seem like a bug.

 

[DukeLeto42]

Constantine's most cynical critics state that the only reason he made Christianity the state religion was because much of the power base was rapidly converting to Christianity...not some miracle he witnessed. It’s hard to believe that such a political and military mastermind would make such a weighty decision for the sake of 10% of the population.

Indeed. Conversion occurred in the Empire in the same place power was concentrated - urban centers. This is preserved in the very term for non-Christians - "paganus," which essentially means "redneck," "hick," or "hillbilly." The people who "mattered" were converting, and Constantine followed suit.

After consolidating power, Constantine began the process of wielding state power on behalf of the institution of Christianity at the expense of all other religions, which would continue and become more extreme up until the empire is fully Christianized and then serve as the model for Christianization outside of the empire, using a variety of political pressures including inducement, coercion, and violence.

It is really only late in his reign that we can suggest that Constantine is "wielding state power on behalf of the institution of Christianity." It would be far more accurate to say that Constantine helped guide the creation of an "institution of Christianity" in the first place, one consistent with state power.

 

[svalan_i_dalen]

Jewish particularism and perceived privileges were cause of antisemitic sentiment like during the Alexandria pogrom under roman rule in -38. I didn't read about active proselytization by jews as a cause of resentment, maybe you have a source

Some sources here

Forced conversion - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Emre Yigit]

As a final point, he did this with relatively little pushback.

Yes, he succeeded where Elagabalus failed, but, then, he was no Elagabalus.

 

[Battlex]

Yes, he succeeded where Elagabalus failed, but, then, he was no Elagabalus.

I mean it helps not being a cute princess (male)

I would also like to see a source for the runaway success of Jewish proselytism in this period. Being known for actively proselytizing and being known for having greater-than-normal success at it are two different things.



No, it wouldn't actually. Christianity's (and Islam's) success was driven primarily by top-down institutional pressure, not because it was as popular as sliced bread.

EDIT: Also sliced bread is garbage don't @ me.

Jews were successful in Ethiopia and Yemen, Yemeni Jews still exist today and are likely one of the key influences for Mohammed's life
Christianity was popular in the East and some of the west. The east had far more population centres as well as more integrated trade routes and social mobility, and not to mention being close to Jerusalem. Yes Gaul and Brittania weren't very Christian at the time of Constantine's acclamation, but Christianity was of growing significance within the empire, and as always, if the influential believe it its irrelevant to what the majority believe.

 

[Battlex]

- actually during timeframe it was know exactly for that reason. Jews under a foreign rule were very active in converting commoners and slaves via direct proselytization. This was one of the reasons why they were actively persecuted by greeks and romans. Also couple of arab and african realms converted to Judaism slightly after game timeframe.

Source on mass conversions being the source for persecution? Jews using Alexander as a messiah, and some becoming very Hellenistic before the Maccabean revolt makes me think it was more the influence they held as money lenders and their monotheism

 

[Battlex]

Interestingly, none of this is possible to represent in the game: pops can't convert each other, they can only be converted to the state religion, and I don't think it's possible to convert to Judaism as an independent realm because the Jewish prophets aren't available to other religions and the decision to convert requires to have at least 2 deities from the other pantheon to be present in yours.

Aren't there schemes to convert courtiers? If of wrong faith a governor will never set the conversion edict, even if you have a mixed pantheon

 

[Roxas15]

- actually during timeframe it was know exactly for that reason. Jews under a foreign rule were very active in converting commoners and slaves via direct proselytization. This was one of the reasons why they were actively persecuted by greeks and romans. Also couple of arab and african realms converted to Judaism slightly after game timeframe.

There is a difference between some people converting and actively converting people. also this has nothing to do with the way jews are portrayed in the game.