Judaism and Paradox games

[Char1es]

Purely out of interest (I respect Paradox's decision, just curious), why is it that Judaism is omitted as a working religion from most Paradox games? I'm aware that there's a sensitivity aspect, but it could be argued that there's something like that attached to most faiths. There are skimps on sensitivity elsewhere - there's the ability to declare holy wars in several games, and you can also order for the massacre of natives in the colonies of EU3 (hell, HOI3 even allows the USSR to instigate the Purges - that's way out of order, lol).

What is the reason for Judaism's special case?

 

[Dragula]

Way out of order how..?

 

[Char1es]

Way out of order how..?

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100704191652AAVeM6V

In other words, it's like giving Germany the option to carry out the Holocaust.

 

[Dragula]

No, not really.

 

[Crater122]

Part of the problem of implementing Judaism is how do you balance it in relation to the other religions? The EU3 system of religion only allows for heretics and heathen religions, and all religions that fall under those labels are treated the same. If you introduce Judaism as a state religion, do Christian countries hate them as much as the Muslim and Pagan countries? If they were treated as heretics, they would be hated less, but the only way to allow for that under EU3 game mechanics would be to make it a subset of the Christian religion, which makes no sense.

 

[Connor Mulhern]

Part of the problem of implementing Judaism is how do you balance it in relation to the other religions? The EU3 system of religion only allows for heretics and heathen religions, and all religions that fall under those labels are treated the same. If you introduce Judaism as a state religion, do Christian countries hate them as much as the Muslim and Pagan countries? If they were treated as heretics, they would be hated less, but the only way to allow for that under EU3 game mechanics would be to make it a subset of the Christian religion, which makes no sense.

Or in more simple terms, it was not a majority religion in any EU, CK province 99% of the time, and it is covered in games like Vicky where minorities are covered. Its not some anti-jewish conspiracy or anything, they had a role, but they were never a majority

 

[Pacius Ferox]

Rome has Judaism as a religion.

 

[Klausewitz]

Another point might be that even for Europeans and most of the Western world Judaism as ballooned as an issue it is a ridiciliously small religious community. No matter how you count there are hardly more than 10 million practizing jews (hard to determine since Israeli and Jew tend to be muddled together) 12 tops.
There are 2 billion Christians, 1.6 billion moslems, around a million budhists and around half a billion Buddhists.
Even Sikhs and Shinto are more numerours than Judaism.
Ah, i just learned that according to the CIA Factbook there 14-18 million Jews, well.
But that is still a very, very tiny number.
Judaism owes its siginificance more to its offspring, Islam and Christianity, then to its own impact.
0.22 % of the World population claim it as their religion and then consider all the unfortunate history of progroms and genocide (there is a reason why a lot of Jewish holidays are basically 'X tried to kill us and god saved us') and you got a nice culmunination of facts that leads to PI not mentioning them.

 

[AndrewT]

We get a thread like this about once a month. There's one in EU4 right now. Did you search around for answers?

The basic answer is there are many minority religions who are omitted as state religions from most Paradox games, including Judaism, Zoroastrianism, Sikh, Jainism Druze and others I can't think of right now. They simply never formed a majority in any single province, and except for V2 the games can only reflect the majority religion. Why people only ever mention Judaism of these minority religions, well I guess you'll have to answer that as you singled them out for mention.

Despite theories to the contrary there is no special sensitivity about Judaism, it is not a special case in any way (the Holocaust aside). They are mentioned in a few EU2 events, IIRC, and as said above they exist in EU:Rome.

 

[DarthJF]

Purely out of interest (I respect Paradox's decision, just curious), why is it that Judaism is omitted as a working religion from most Paradox games?

It's not omitted from most Paradox games. It's presented in Victoria games, EU: Rome, CK1, and Israel as a country is in HOI games. Then there's the upcoming Cold War game that's going to represent Israel and the Middle-East during post-WW2 period.

 

[Klausewitz]

It's not omitted from most Paradox games. It's presented in Victoria games, EU: Rome, CK1, and Israel as a country is in HOI games. Then there's the upcoming Cold War game that's going to represent Israel and the Middle-East during post-WW2 period.

Israel and Judaism are not the same.

 

[Connor Mulhern]

Israel and Judaism are not the same.

Well according to the Israeli supreme court, that happens to be false

 

[Klausewitz]

Well, the US Supreme court also did a couple of pretty big 'wtf'-decisions, so why not the Israeli supreme court?

 

[DarthJF]

Israel and Judaism are not the same.

No, but they're related.

 

[Connor Mulhern]

Well, the US Supreme court also did a couple of pretty big 'wtf'-decisions, so why not the Israeli supreme court?

Well considering that there is still a blanket ban on citizenship by marriage for muslim countries, it can certainly be debated.

 

[AndrewT]

Keep on topic! No political posts here at all please.

 

[GreatSlayer]

(the Holocaust aside)

I've always been split and confused regarding this one in terms of sensitivity. My most obvious PI defence mechanism externally would be that "implementing the holocaust in any way, shape or form would ultimately remove Germany as a playable option for any decent minded individual, or the axis as a faction you'd want to join. Thus limiting your strategic gameplay by your own ethics and regards for human life, which you shouldn't have to endure while playing a game aimed for entertainment." But lately I've been contemplating if this isn't more insensitive than having it modeled in the game. I mean, come on. Stalin's purges are in. It's ok to murder politicians and soldiers I assume, even hundreds of thousands of them.
No, if this isn't about comforting with German censorship or trying to stay off the medial consequences, I don't know what it is. It's either that, or leaving the purges in was a design and continuity flaw. But as many others said before me, in other PI games Judaism is quite accessible and prevalent where the mechanics allow a somewhat fair portrayal of it.

 

[Klausewitz]

I think it is about something else.
If you put in the Holocaust (which is not just about the Jews, who make up roughly half of the victims) then you have to also put in the system of forced labour and that would result in hard advantages for every player willing to use it.
Imagine it:
"Holocaust
Yes - IC +10%
No - no effects"
I imagine that might get quite a bit of backlash.

 

[Char1es]

I think it is about something else.
If you put in the Holocaust (which is not just about the Jews, who make up roughly half of the victims) then you have to also put in the system of forced labour and that would result in hard advantages for every player willing to use it.
Imagine it:
"Holocaust
Yes - IC +10%
No - no effects"
I imagine that might get quite a bit of backlash.

That was in good taste. :excl:

 

[Klausewitz]

That was in good taste. :excl:

No, it ain't. But that is the point. Forced labour, slavery, looting all have this pesky little particularity that players are actually rewarded for doing things considered morally evil. Rape, for example, carries no quanitifiable advantages to the player (though i remember one roleplaying game that got quite a bit of backlash because it included an advancement that would let you 'power up' by having your way with 'the wenches') and is not very high on a list of things you would have to avoid, since players would have to be incentivized.
Not so with evil actions that carry their reward.
And in most PI games, and for players trying to paint the map anyways, hard economical advantages might trump moral considerations.