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MadDoctorScientist

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Important Disclaimer: I already raised this issue before, but given that Emperor is about to be released it may be worth mentioning it again. I do remember a screenshot regarding the Ark of the Covenant and reworking Catholicism implies reworking other religious populations. Seriously, the game as it is barely acknowledge the existence of Jewish communities and individuals in game, both were they existed in small or large numbers. That has been bothering for months and I have been thinking of how to highlight exactly how unfair and inconsiderate that is. And it was not easy, because at best it may sound like Cancel Culture and worst case it may sound like I am accusing Paradox of anti-Semitism. So, I am trying to be as tactful as I can while still being comprehensible to everyone and within the (rather restrictive) guidelines of the forum. So, please do not shred me to pieces. This is intended as constructive criticism and customer review, and I am trying my best to keep it as well mannered as humanly possible. Also, I really do not want to spend money on a lawyer during this economy, so that is an extra incentive.


As my previous posts and comments said, Judaism and Jews are incredibly absent from the game. Several people pointed out that given how Jewish History is not exactly lots of fun it was left out due to that. And that is quite unfair, because when I play I want the Jewish people in my realm to interact and be interacted with, both for immersion and gameplay reasons. As I have stated before, while their numbers were few it was always a influential community that provided some of the most extraordinary individuals of the day; and was also present during some of the most important, tragic and noteworthy events of the time, so their addition is more than justifiable, and their absence is both disappointing and unsettling.

The argument that Paradox, as every business under the Sun, is avoiding to better integrate and represent Jews were it is due sounds to me like a really poor argument. In another episode of "doomed if you do and doomed if you don't" the two options are adding more active and visible representation of them and risking someone complaining about the Inquisition and such, or not adding the afore mentioned and being in a situation were E.U.IV represents as best as possible all cultures and faith of back then, EXCEPT by Judaism, which was singled out. Both are not ideal positions to be in, but it is my understanding that doing the first one and risk upsetting some people is preferable to the second one, where you are guaranteed to upset most if not all of the Jewish/Jewish Enthusiast players, plus being in a situation of erasing Jewish presence and history on purpose. So, someone please correct me if I am wrong, but that sounds really bad. I mean, a province in Ethiopia and one Jewish advisor every two hundred years is barely anything, with or without the New World lost civilisation thing. Judaism is basically no-existing in game.

The game already deals with some not very subtle aspects of human History, slavery, war, persecution, genocide, religious extremism, and so on. It really makes no sense to Judaism be left out, for better or worse. If the people above are right and the intention is to avoid controversy, that is not really to work. Plus, since one of the greatest and most beautiful thing about Jewish history is how they survive and thrive no matter what you throw at them it can be noted that tragedies such as the Inquisition were the reason why the Serfadi Jews came to be, with their culture and identity and influence in History (I think I used Spinoza as the example on that other post) or the massive development of Protestant and occasionally Islamic nations in detriment of Catholic/Orthodox ones where some of the most educated and wealth individuals were forced out (not that Luther was friendly towards Jews either). So, leaving them out due to the horrible things is also leaving them out for the great things. Which, as kids would say, it sucks.
(that is also why I could raise the point that censoring the nwadis in Hearts of Iron and the forum is a terrible idea, but I am not pressing my luck here)

And as i said, I am concerned this may sound like a entitled complaint of some Cancel Culture oaf. So to clarify, these cancel culture types never consume the medias they bend to their will and will never be happy with anything offered to them. I am a player of the game with most DLCs and 2000 hours of play according to Steam, and I am not making an outrageous impossible demand either. Just the same input everyone does.

So, that is that and hopefully I will not get banned. I have yet to make a thread about how the soundtrack of the game is incredibly unoriginal.
 
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korawit13

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How about Ashkenazi Jews? How about Orthodox Jews? How about Mizrachi Jews? How about Litvish? How about Masorti Judaism? How about Reform Judaism?
:eek:There is in fight religious doctrine like any religion. I would like to know more. Thank you. :) I think both moderators and developers want to know more as well.
 

MadDoctorScientist

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How about Ashkenazi Jews? How about Orthodox Jews? How about Mizrachi Jews? How about Litvish? How about Masorti Judaism? How about Reform Judaism?
There is in fight religious doctrine like any religion. I would like to know more. Thank you.

Half of those are in the XIX century. But the question is: would a Christian king or a Islamic Sultan (the player) be concerned with the inner workings of the Jewish community?
The overwhelming majority would not, and their interactions with the Jews would apply equally to all of them. I mean, the Inquisition did not persecute only this or that sect, they went after everybody. The Russian progoms did the same. On the other hand, were the Jews were more welcomed/tolerated they were all welcomed/tolerated. So if at first they are added as a generic representation it would be inaccurate. From there it can be expanded overtime, but it has to start somewhere, by thunder!
 

EasternTiger

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How about Ashkenazi Jews? How about Orthodox Jews? How about Mizrachi Jews? How about Litvish? How about Masorti Judaism? How about Reform Judaism?
:eek:There is in fight religious doctrine like any religion. I would like to know more. Thank you. :) I think both moderators and developers want to know more as well.
Some of those groups are ethnic groups while some are religious. For example, Litvish Jews are just a subgroup of Ashkenazis living in Lithuania. As for the 3 different denominations of Rabbinic Judaism, the split into Reform, Conservative and Orthodox happened near the end of the EU4 timeline and is irrelevant.
 
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Blackwhitecavias

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Correct me if I misread it, but your argument seems to be "the developers should not add them because they are too lazy to implement them right and Jews are a minority anyway". Did I miss something?
And the presence or absence of Jews here or there is a complex one, because of all the persecutions and what not. That is why I mentioned to JaxElite that a meter of tolerance is a good thing. Jewish presence and influence changes depending on that, some or less as the influences of the estates work.
About granting them land, thinking of Napoleon's Emancipation of the Jews, that should be a decision you can make at some point in the later game, with the possible exception of Poland and Islamic nations (only a few were that generous, but game mechanics). But as far as I remember, you can not grant lands to that estate representing Christians/Jews/etc. in the Islamic nations, yet they exist. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

Also, I am not if you considered the tiny small issue that representing everyone EXCEPT the Jews passes a not very good message. I know how much Cancel Culture-ish this sounds, but it is really weird.

My argument is that currently minorities do not have representation anywhere and that the jews due to that should not be represented in a different way than other minorities. It's also not true that everyone except the jews is represented: All minorities that don't have enough power to consistently influence direction of the country are not represented and not just the Jews. The dhimmi exist as an estate because they did actually hold power in the regions of the muslim empires, which was generally not the case for Jews in europe. Considering the jews didn't get close to holding significant sway over countries an estate would not make sense and the same is true for some kind of meter of tolerance (which would give global bonuses even though the effect of Jewish communities would be restricted to a few provinces at most).
 
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MadDoctorScientist

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My argument is that currently minorities do not have representation anywhere and that the jews due to that should not be represented in a different way than other minorities. It's also not true that everyone except the jews is represented: All minorities that don't have enough power to consistently influence direction of the country are not represented and not just the Jews.(...)

Please do share how exactly Jewish communities did not influence the direction of the nations they lived in.
 

Blackwhitecavias

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Please do share how exactly Jewish communities did not influence the direction of the nations they lived in.

Please do share how they did because if they didn't there would be no proof of that. I'll give my own nation the Netherlands as an example of why I believe they weren't that important: As far as I know the only references to the Jews in our main history books are that they were welcome (if they had money) and were allowed to build a synagogue in Amsterdam in 1619 (which would at most be an event, but probably shouldn't be represented as people of other religions did more most of the time) and then some stuff about Spinoza (who lived in the Netherlands and is already represented via an advisor event), with them not having a major influence in other places (outside of being part of the merchant class, which is already represented via the burghers).
 
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