Jools' Conversation about Bolshevik War...

[Jools]

I had a conversation on a certain OT site (Apolyton.net) with a guy who calls himself Chegitz Guevara... hmphf! The thread was in general about communism and it somehow turned into, I quote, "Eastern European B*tchfest". Somehow, this chegitz guy stated that Poland attacked Russia in 1919... Well I tried to prove him wrong (I got a bit carried away mind you...)...

For the full thread go here
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27391 page 4-5

Anyway back to the point...


it all started with this post

Roman, what were 'Soviets' like before 1917? Roughly where they are now.
Saras, Lithuania was, as I often had a chance to listen and read, at one point stretching all the way to the Black Sea. Ditto Poland. Roman, I agree...Tyso is not even worth mentioning. On the other hand, not very many people realize that for instance Poland readily carved a piece of Czechoslovakia when it was occupied. Ironically, they were carved up a year later.
Finally (and I am really tired) back to Saras' trolling: you should have liberated yourself then. Realistically it was either Soviets or Nazis. However bad Soviets were, you could join them and dance around repeating silly brainwashing mantras. With Nazis, if you were not one of them, you were a filthy scumbag who had to end up in soap at some point or work the rest of the life as a slave.

I said it was QUARRELED LAND and the CZECHS made a LAND GRAB when there weren't any OFFICIAL borders and the POLISH ARMY was away in UKRAINE getting slaughtered by AGRESSSIVE BOLSHEVIKS.

I posted this due to the fact that someone called capitalists evil agressive and oprrrrressive and that the Brutal and oppressive capitalist helped Hitler and carved up czechoslovakia... Then it really started...

I was referring to your army being in Ukraine. What the hell were they doing there? Should have stayed at home. You should be happy you avoided a total disaster.

Reply to my post...

Interesting. Were you allied with Petliura or Mahno or some other anti-Semitic bunch of trigger-happy ultranationalists that I have not yet heard about?
As you probably know, Kiev is the birthplace of Russian state and eastern Ukraine is predominantly Russian.
By the way, was there any particular Ukrainian self-proclaimed goverment you were allied at? Bolsheviks were fighting on the territory of former 'Russian Empire' so I guess it was 'their territory'.

Reply to my "We were allied with the Ukrainians..."

Deity Dude: you might bear in mind that virtually all communist regimes developed in a HIGHLY hostile environment. E.G. 18 countries invaded USSR (including 'heroic Poland' - I do not know why Jools cites that agression as a high point in Polish history - there is NO vindication for it), Cuba is still under blocade, etc. etc.

I replied that the Bolshevik war was indeed a high point in Polish history. We stopped the world workers revolution and guaranteed our independance...

Well, Jools, considering the war took place in 1920, I'd have to say your sources were wrong. If the Poles were fighting defensively, how'd they end up with Western Byelorussia, Ukraine, and a piece of Lithuania? The Poles saw the civil war in Russia as an opportunity for a land grab and attacked. If Stalin hadn't disobeyed orders and hooked up with the main Red Army like he was supposed to, then Poland would have been red twenty five years sooner and the German Revolution would probably have succeeded. The whole world would probably be Communist today if not for that.

-Guevara....
People really like to make problems... Said the war started in 1921 when it really started in 1919. This ofcourse made my sources unreliable...

Jools, in 1920-21, the Russians were attacked by basically everyody who had either a border with them or a navy.

I think he was reffering to the civil war?

Because you tried to grab your 'historic' lands (usual pretext for every agression. You got soundly beaten. Then Soviets tried to 'export' world revolution and got soundly beaten too. It was a draw. Since Poland started it, it has only itself to blame for the destruction. In 1920 the last thing USSR wanted was more bloodshed, they already had 4 yrs of world war and 3 yrs of civil war.

The last part is especially funny... Har har har!

I then started quoting the CIA factbook, which of course is evil imperialistic propaganda to them and every time I tried to clarify that the war was a defensive one, they ignored me and started babbling something about Polish aggression...

Now, according to you people, am I really a victim of evil capitalistic propaganda and ultra nationalism that is seeded in Polish history books???

 

[ziggy]

Now im confused. Poland did fight Russia, or the USSR sometime in the 20s right?
If they didnt start it, who did? What really happened?

 

[unmerged(598)]

Jools, I think you have a lot of patience to deal with the crap in that forum. I lurk there every now and again, but the vitriol and garbage that gets posted.......

I had read some of the thread you referred to, but didn't get too far into it. It's hard to argue with someone who discredits your sources because they disagree with him, and then claims that history is incorrect.

You could simply bang your head against a wall, or stay in these forums.

 

[unmerged(2833)]

Originally posted by ziggy
Now im confused. Poland did fight Russia, or the USSR sometime in the 20s right?
If they didnt start it, who did? What really happened?

You really don't know? It was very important war, after all, for all of europe and world. You know, that war. Chrrr, chrrr.
Oh well, it's too late now

 

[Jools]

Oh good, SO after all I am not blinded by a mixture of Polish ultra nationalism and american imperialism... Phew! I thought I was dead meat!

Ziggy:
Polish Legions (formed in Austria) liberated Poland from Germany in 1918. There where 4 uprisings (one in Greater Poland and three in Silesia), a land grab made for Vilinius (which was succesful) and a few phony plebiscites... In 1919 the Bolsheviks having destroyed most of the White opposition decided to bring the World Workers Revolution to weak, disarmed Europe... Polish armies who were allied with Ataman Petliura took Kiev from the Bolsheviks and withstood 2 assaults. During the third one, they were routed... Then the war came to Poland and was a defeat after defeat for Poland... Especially on the Belorussian (Northern) Front commanded by Tuchachevsky. The Ukrainian (southern) front, commanded by Stalin, was halted near Lvov and an opening was made in the Northern front's flank...

Tuchachevsky was about to storm Warsaw in 1920. The Polish Commander, Pilsudski, thought he would strike Warsaw centrally so he diverted all his forces to the middle. Infact Tuchachevsky was to strike from the north where Pilsudski only left the Fifth Army, mainly made of volunteers (commanded by Sikorski) but it was the only Polish army with tanks (~100 of them).

This small inexpierienced army defeated, routed and pursued the entire Bolshevik army away from Warsaw whilst Pilsudski attacked the before mentioned gap in the Northern front encircling the Northern army and cutting off it's supplies. The war was won.

 

[unmerged(5986)]

Originally posted by Jools
Oh good, SO after all I am not blinded by a mixture of Polish ultra nationalism and american imperialism... Phew! I thought I was dead meat!

Hello, it's possible they only know about the second phase (after the armistice) of the war, which was started by Poland. I've to admit I only remembered it too, when I started reading your post. How did the first phase start?

Thanks for the battle of Warzaw, BTW.

 

[unmerged(169)]

I see here is opinion that Poland saved Europe from communism. Let me tell something about those times.

Pilsudski started advance to Kiev with an army of 80K in late april 1920. And took it without battle at 9 may 1920. After some reinforcements, and more important arriving 1st Cav Army (17K elites of Civil War) under gen. Budennyi, russians launched stormly attack on Pilsudski. 1st Cav Army did a huge hole of 80km in polish lines and was going to rear of Pilsudski. Now poles starting withdrawal to Warzaw. With so good start Trocki (russian war minister) took 1st Cav Army back and left Tuchachevski without cavalry. Polish army was disorganized and tired. When last operation near Warzaw was finished, gen. Weigan (name may be wrong) realize that Tuchachevski would launch an assault on Warzaw from north. He immediatelly send a letter to Sikorski and Pilsudski. Tuchachevski's armies was weak and tired too. He didnt had reinforcements during that advance. When battle for Warzaw was in middle, Tuchachevski realize that he going into trap. He call 1st Cav Army immediatelly, but it was too late.

The Civil War in Russia was between october 1917 to october 1922. But really battles in war was after Chech corps revolt in may 1918 to defeat of gen. Wrangel in Krimea in november 1920. During the war Russia got damages on near 50.000.000.000 gold rubles (1 gold ruble = 7 USA gold dollars in year 1913), lost half of workers class, and near 8.000.000 human lives. Industry were down to 4-20 percent in different regions. At time when Tuchachevski was defeated at Warzaw, there were battles for Krimea, Siberia and Far East. Politbyuro (Soviet analog of parliament) make decision that World revolution must wait for a while. First need clear what they have now. Raise up industry and farming. Develop new arms, especially aviation and tanks.

At last i want say that Red Army at 1st november 1920 was 5.427.273. And i think if there were strong needs to defeat Poland it wouldnt be a big problem. Well, now we see that dream of bolsheviks about World Revolution didnt happens. But make some progress during WWII and Cold War.

 

[ziggy]

Cheers Jools.

 

[Jools]

The BIG picture in 1918.

The Reds were gaining the upper hand in 1918 and were cruising around former Russia enstating so called Red Soviet Republics. Poland's eastern border was fluid and the land in between Poland and the Bolsheviks was a true no man's land.
The Bolsheviks succesfully raided Estonia, Lithuania, Belorus, Ukraine and Latvia and enstated the before mentioned republics.

This is a must know: Even though Pisludski was the dictator in Poland, he had political enemies (people with different ideas on how to form the New Polish state). His main enemy was Roman Dmowski, head of the Nationalistic Democracy, whilst Pilsudski was chief of the (non radical) Socialist Party.

Seeing that the Bolsheviks will soon be a problem for Poland, Pilsudski thought that he will form an alliance with all of his Eastern neighbours and form a federal country (with Ukraine, Lithuania, Latvia etc...) whilst Dmowski wanted a supreme Polish state with assimilated 'lesser' slavic people.

This is how the war started. The Poles worried about what was happening decided to butt-in.
Paramilitary self defense groups were soon relieved and the soviets were pushed back. Pilsudski liberated Vilinius from the Reds. In June the Poles captured Minsk.
In late 1919 Pilsudski began negotiating with the Bolsheviks because their overall situation was bad. Their defeat at Minsk and the succeses of White General Anton Deniken (in Crimea).
The Polish offensive was stopped. Pilsudski, being a socialist, prefered to have the weak Bolsheviks as neighbours then the thought of a reborn Russian Empire..

This cease fire didn't last very long. After a swift defeat of the Whites in Crimea, the Bolsheviks stopped the peace negotiations. In winter of 1919/1920, General Rydz Smigly and his Latvian allies liberated Dyneburg and handed it over to independant Latvia.

At the same time on the south eastern Polish 'border' skirmishes between the Poles and the Ukrainians began for supremacy in Galicia. The Ukrainians started to loose after Gen. Jozef Hallers 'French Army' joined the action.

The fighting (between the Poles and Ukrainians) stopped when the Bolsheviks attacked the free People's Republic of Ukraine (lead by Ataman Peltiura). In this situation, in 1920, Petlura signed an alliance with Pilsudski...

The Polish Army caputred Kiev on the 7th May 1920.......

The capture of Kiev spawned nationalism, the Russians couldn't bear that the Poles captured 'their Kiev'. The Red Army made purely of uneducated workers needed good officers to continue it's war. As luck would have it, ~40,000 Tsarist officers joined the Red Army to answer their nationalistic call...

The Red Army quickly captured Minsk, Vilinius and Bialystok, where good ol' IRON Felix Dzierzynski formed temporary revolutionary council.

The Red Army was only halted at Lvov...

The attack on Warsaw began on the 12th August. On the 16th, the Polish Army began the counterattack and drove the Russians to Prussia, where they weren't interned and regrouped and planned to assault Warsaw again. They were unsuccesful. Pilsudksi got to Tuchachevsky first and defeated him totally at the Niemen river.

Tuchachevsky was supposed to get reinforments from Biudonny's Cavalry Army (which was trying to capture Lvov). This army was halted and routed at Komarowo by General Hallers Army.

The Southern Russian army was forced to withdraw by Polish maneuvers near the Dniestr river...

Minsk, Bialystok and the rest (except Vilinius) were liberated and a peace treaty was signed in Riga on th 18th of March 1921.

About Vilinius: The Red Army, whilst withdrawing, gave Vilinius to the Lithuanians, who declared it their capital. The 'Renegade' general Zegligowski invaded Central Lithuania and captured Vilinius and claimed it an autonomic province of Poland (this infuriated the Lithuanians but there wasn't much they could do). Lithuania and Vilinius were added to Poland by order of the Polish parlament. The Lithuanians didn't accept this and called it their occupied capital.

That's how the Eastern Polish borders ceased to be fluid and became stable. Those times were really messy...

As for the numbers, I am not sure. The Red Army counted 5 million soldiers... Their quality was average. The Polish army was somewhere between 300-500 thousand... Many were volunteers.

During the Bolshevik War Poland had 320,000 wounded and killed in action. The Russians didn't count their dead.

 

[unmerged(169)]

Originally posted by Jools
The BIG picture in 1918.

skip

Their defeat at Minsk and the succeses of White General Anton Deniken (in Crimea).

skip

During the Bolshevik War Poland had 320,000 wounded and killed in action. The Russians didn't count their dead.

Denikin was replaced by gen Wrangel after some defeats. Wrangel was defeated and Crimea token by Red Army only by november 1920.

About loses of Red Army there is too many numbers and their are each different. âÏÌØÛÁÑ óÏ×ÅÔÓËÁÑ üÎÃÉËÌÏÐÅÄÉÑ, óÏ×ÅÔÓËÁÑ ÉÓÔÏÒÉÞÅÓËÁÑ ÜÎÃÉËÌÏÐÅÄÉÑ, çÒÁÖÄÁÎÓËÁÑ ×ÏÊÎÁ É ×ÏÅÎÎÁÑ ÉÎÔÅÒ×ÅÎÃÉÑ × óóóò (The Big Soviet Encyclopaedia, Soviet Historical Encyclopaedia, Civil War and foreign intervention in USSR) all those books give near 1 million of all loses (KIA, WIA, MIA, POW) . Another book (çÒÉÆ ÓÅËÒÅÔÎÏÓÔÉ ÓÎÑÔ. ðÏÔÅÒÉ ×ÏÏÒÕÖÅÎÎÙÈ ÓÉÌ óóóò, 1993, ISBN 5-203-01400-0) gives another and more detail numbers. Dead (KIA) - 376.269. Wounded, sick, deserted, POW etc. - 4.322.241. All those loses during 1918-1920.

P.S. IE View--->Encoding--->Cyrillic(KOI8-R)

 

[Intosh]

Originally posted by Neon


gen. Weigan (name may be wrong) realize that Tuchachevski would launch an assault on Warzaw from north. He immediatelly send a letter to Sikorski and Pilsudski.

Hi,

Sorry for my bad english, but I'm french.

General Weygang was french, he was the Head of the French Military Mission in Poland, including also young De Gaulle.

His role in the battle of Warsaw was a lot surestimated, he never had a great role in the decisions made by polish headquarters. His arrogance and his constant questioning of polish generals capabilities made that these generals never gave him a lot of operational informations. It wasn't his ideas that was used to win "the miracle of the Vistule".


Others french officers of lesser ranks participated in the battle as front line councillors, some even fight against the Red Army.

I remembered a information of the bolchevik propaganda telling that the french send a complete division of black troops (Tirailleurs Senegalais) in Dantzig to fight against russians. Of course, it was only a rumor.

Good bye,

 

[Halibutt]

Originally posted by Intosh
(...)General Weygang was french, he was the Head of the French Military Mission in Poland, including also young De Gaulle.
(...) he never had a great role in the decisions made by polish headquarters. His arrogance and his constant questioning of polish generals capabilities made that these generals never gave him a lot of operational informations. It wasn't his ideas that was used to win "the miracle of the Vistule".
(...)

Moreover, when Pilsudski made his plan of outflanking the Soviets from their left flank (small gap in their front close to the Wieprz river), Weygand stated it was a stupidity with no chance of success and... as a protest he withdrew with his staff back to France.
Cheers

 

[unmerged(334)]

OK, I don't see what are you fighting about. It is normal that 2 sides of the conflict will have different story to tell. I believe the truth is somewhere between. New Soviet Russia was in the middle of civil war the was very costly and savage. Poland was just gain its independence after 123 years of occupation. Its borders were still not formed or its government stable.
As far as I know Poland was at war with Soviet Russia right from the start. CCCP did not accept or recognize Polish independence, it considered it as one of the rebel regions like Ukraine or Crimea. Poland was very week and had no army to spare even when Czechs took part of Polish Silesia. ( Poland took it back in 1938 during German takeover). The western Poland gain Independence by civil revolts and uprisings. There was no regular war with Germany over that territory. Eastern front was a different story. It was general land grab between newly formed or forming nations and CCCP. Poles were trying to regain the same borders as before Partition which was impossible. It generated conflict with new Ukraine, Lithuania and Czechoslovakia. CCCP never recognized Ukraine as independent nation and started to reoccupy the territory. At that time Poland and Ukraine formed alliance to stop that movement. So, basically Poland went from fighting Ukrainians to helping them ( only because it wished to have a buffer state from CCCP) Then the Soviets pushed them back to Warsaw and then Poles pushed back to Minsk.
My point is that all sides were the aggressor. Soviets for not allowing the independence of nations in former Russian empire and Poles for wishing to form a new Great Poland at all costs. The war was very costly to all sides.

 

[Jools]

boy, this sure is old. Digging through the oldies Prince?

 

[unmerged(334)]

Ok, explain...not sure what you mean..

 

[unmerged(469)]

Dude, this thread is like 50 years old.

 

[Jools]

it's really weird when you read what you wrote and then you're astounded by how smart you were... I was reading my posts and was thinking 'damn, this guy is smart' then I looked... hmm, it's me... damn, I forgot everything

The last post before halibutt was from 2001

 

[unmerged(334)]

Originally posted by Jools
boy, this sure is old. Digging through the oldies Prince?

Oh..now I got it..You mean old thread,,,lol... It was not me who restart the topic..It was halibut....blame him

 

[Halibutt]

Originally posted by Pomerania Prince
Oh..now I got it..You mean old thread,,,lol... It was not me who restart the topic..It was halibut....blame him

Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea culpa maxima...
Cheers

 

[pithorr]

Originally posted by Jools
it's really weird when you read what you wrote and then you're astounded by how smart you were... I was reading my posts and was thinking 'damn, this guy is smart' then I looked... hmm, it's me... damn, I forgot everything

The last post before halibutt was from 2001

However it is still good opportunity to wind up the counter