Johan twitter poll: remove sailors?

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Romaoplays

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They should just *replace it* with manpower, it's not like you can't train a man to be a sailor, it's not like he must have "special vocation" to do it... Just like manpower, they aren't ready, that's why you recruit and train them.
 
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saegoto

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some ideas:

decrease numbers of sailors. 10 per dev of coastal province or 25 per mil dev of coastal province. add base amount: 1000

battles phases:
FIRE
artillery fire pipes * cannons make dmg to hull and sailors (less). ship can be sunk, damaged but not captured
SHOCK
infantry shock pipes * sailors amount make dmg to sailors only (not hull). ship can be sunk, captured but not damaged

both phases touch morale damage ofc


amount of sailors on a ship is increasing during teching, e.g. heavy ship starts with 200+50 every upgrade, Threedekker has 450 sailors, Carrack 200

make attrition to hit sailors not hull. when all sailors are dead ship is sunk

Changing Ship Specialization:

pay 25 gold for every ship to change Battle Heavy Ship to Trade Heavy Ship = amount of cannons and sailors are halved but gets trade power
pay 10 gold for every ship to change Trade Light Ship to Battle Light Ship = loses trade power but number of cannons and sailors are doubled
pay 1 gold for every ship to upgrade Galley. it gets more sailors and extra speed but suffers permanent 0,1% attrition per month. pay not gold to go back to normal
 
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Turboflex

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A huge part of the era was the implications of British Naval dominance which really had major impact on the economies of especially France, Spain and the Netherlands and their strategic planning. As mentioned, the British always had a lot of trouble manning their ships with skilled seamen, while the French/Spanish strategy of rounding out crew numbers with too many untrained men didn't really serve them very well. Sailors was kind of a half hearted grope at this dynamic, has some potential but it needs a lot of work. For one thing I have never found myself running short of men.
 

Dracolithfiend

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it's not like he must have "special vocation" to do it... Just like manpower, they aren't ready, that's why you recruit and train them.
This is not exactly how it worked though. Unlike the army the navy never had any drill. They would literally put raw "recruits" onto a ship and they would simply learn as they went. This meant that a ship needed the officers (captain, surgeon, bosun, boatswain, first mate, chief carpenters mate, chief gunner, etcetera), dozens or even hundreds of "Able Seaman" which were sailers with extensive experience serving multiple positions over years, and lots of inexperienced men who are likely on their first ship. During the Napoleonic wars England basically ran out of Able Seaman but they had an abundance of captains. They could always dredge prisons to impress (basically enslave) people to serve as the inexperienced bulwark but ships like the HMS Hermione who went to sea with literally 20 able seamen, 12 marines, and roughly 12 officers to keep 180~ voluntolds in line are about as reliable as a blind ex con bank security guard.
 

Quaade

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They should just *replace it* with manpower, it's not like you can't train a man to be a sailor, it's not like he must have "special vocation" to do it... Just like manpower, they aren't ready, that's why you recruit and train them.
Oh but they did have "special" training... They were put in the ship and taught on the spot, since most training couldn´t be done on the land anyway :)
 
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Fluffy_Fishy

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I don't have Twitter because I am not a 12 year old girl, I am a cranky over 40, but umm, lol, sorry, I don't like the concept of sailors either, it has crushed a few strats I used to use.
Out of interest what strats has it ended for you? I am personally happy that it limits the ability to naval spam in war after what should be a crushing naval defeat, which in my opinion is good for the game, its very rare there are more than 1 or 2 decisive naval battles in a war. My main issue with how sailors work in this regard is mothballing is a bit of pain now, despite being something that was used widely through history and that I quite often like to upgrade my trade fleet when it shelters in port during a war.
 

Romaoplays

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Oh but they did have "special" training... They were put in the ship and taught on the spot, since most training couldn´t be done on the land anyway :)
Same point, they *didnt* need any preparation/vocation, so why separating the man for each cathegory?
 
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Viperswhip

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Out of interest what strats has it ended for you? I am personally happy that it limits the ability to naval spam in war after what should be a crushing naval defeat, which in my opinion is good for the game, its very rare there are more than 1 or 2 decisive naval battles in a war. My main issue with how sailors work in this regard is mothballing is a bit of pain now, despite being something that was used widely through history and that I quite often like to upgrade my trade fleet when it shelters in port during a war.

Exactly what you don't like apparently, massive naval numbers for a small nation. It hasn't hurt my fleet building as Castile or whatever, but Gelre and other places.
 
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Dracolithfiend

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I think that naval forces limits already limit small nations to small Navies. Sailors are just redundant. They fill ideas up with useless bonuses which frustrates people.
 

Granathar

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Actually the whole idea of forcelimits is rather weird and unnecessary. What should limit a nation in army size? Money and population. So money and manpower. Manpower itself is a "reserve", so low manpower doesn't mean that country can't have big standing army when mercenaries are involved. So buildings increasing forcelimits should just disappear, because they are irrevelant. Also docks should disappear as they are irrevelant, nobody cares about sailors but WOULD care if whole idea of forcelimits would disappear and would be replaced with manpower/sailors AND navy would create a constant drain of sailors when is in use (another reason for mothballing). Ships should be 25-50% cheaper than they are now (navies are pretty small, they were far bigger in history), their sailor "usage" should be increased with time. So ok - Carrack may have a crew of 200 people, but Twodecker is rather like 600, and Threedecker like 700-800. Also navy needs to be more important than it is now (which is pretty obvious and whole forum is talking about this problem right now), and may use 5-10% of it's sailor crew per year. So 500 people Twodecker would use 25-50 sailors per year just like that, crew rotation as being sailor these times was a really hard job and it was not easy to recruit sailors. Still, it would make sailor ideas a little more useful. Also as someone somewhere mentioned - ship classes would be very nice to have. Armada made of 100 so called now "heavy ships" would be like 100 heavy man-o-wars with 600-800 crew each (XVIII century), because in current EU IV mechanics every late heavy ship is 1st class (and with 200 crew lol?).
 
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Dagda

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I know Johan has been busy implementing CK2 features into EU4 but how about you actually fix sailors to be useful/interesting/fun rather than removing a thing people paid you for. And maybe fix the boring Naval game that 95% of the playerbase hates while you're at it.

Sadly we've entered the age of Twitter Democracy. If Trump can run a country through Twitter than I guess Johan can develop EU4 via Twitter polls.
 
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WorldWarIV

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Wait, wait, wait... I'm a casual player, love EUIV but I still play in 1.15 because I don't want to relearn an already hard to learn game. I did buy Mare Nostrum recently though. So you're telling me that Paradox sometimes removes features that I paid for? If it's true, what the hell? Does it happen a lot? Was it a free feature?
 

fred.erick

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Wait, wait, wait... I'm a casual player, love EUIV but I still play in 1.15 because I don't want to relearn an already hard to learn game. I did buy Mare Nostrum recently though. So you're telling me that Paradox sometimes removes features that I paid for? If it's true, what the hell? Does it happen a lot? Was it a free feature?

It was a feature that was added in a patch alongside Mare Nostrum, so technically it's not something we paid for.
I only bought Mare Nostrum as appreciation for the effort that was put into the naval game, though, and having sailors removed now, instead of being improved, stings.
 

WorldWarIV

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It was a feature that was added in a patch alongside Mare Nostrum, so technically it's not something we paid for.
I only bought Mare Nostrum as appreciation for the effort that was put into the naval game, though, and having sailors removed now, instead of being improved, stings.

That is what I did too, to kind of show my appreciation, encourage them... But removing features? Wow.
 
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Fu.Th.Sy.

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Sailors could be re-balanced. Same could be done for manpower and mercenaries too. Those three areas are the first that are edited in my mod after every patch before starting my campaign. 2k manpower per month is OP in my opinion, although the current values might be closer to eu4 ''realism''. I do realize this kind of changes would cause a massive revolt in EU4 fan base, eg. world conquest people. However, playing with edited values in those three areas makes the game much more interesting, even if you have a large empire.
My vote is NO (keep them).
 
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Ultralisk

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Sailors could be something like navy tradition: just they would give you galley or light ship CA (more sailors You have the more CA bonus You get). Each time You build a ship You lost some sailors (but not needed to build) and they should recover slow. This would mean that You would need to be carefull about Your ship as rebuilding Your navy would decress Your CA
 

WorldWarIV

Second Lieutenant
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I might agree with you if I felt like PDX was planning on streamlining the game or if the addition of sailors was not so recent. It tells me that PDX has no long-term plan and just go with whatever think my be a decent addition without thinking any further.