Johan twitter poll: remove sailors?

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OldmansHQ

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I'd be sad if sailors were removed, because a part of the game would be sliced off. However, in practice the mechanic doesn't add anything to the gameplay. I feel that increasing sailor cost or decreasing sailor growth and the like ideas are not quite the right approach. The easiest way out of this would be to merge sailors with manpower, as in have ships use manpower and get rid of sailors. But I'd definitely prefer if naval combat was further reworked to give sailors meaning rather than have them discarded altogether. Also, make navy more tangible in trans-European wars. This would be grounded both in gameplay and historical authenticity.

My suggestion would be to add more ways in which sailors can be lost. For instance, allow ships to siege coastal provinces. At least in some capacity. Then introduce penalty, like river crossing, for fighting in coastal provinces with enemy navy in the adjacent sea tile. Add more things like this and have them cost sailors.
 
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durbal

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A simple, HUGE change to naval combat would simply be to make blockades actually effective. As it is now, a blockade does a standard -75% trade power. But simply being a coastal province (the only one that can even be blockaded) get +25% to trade power. A marketplace, add another +50%. Mercantalism, add a base +20% (or +50% for Genoa, Venice, etc. that start with 25 Mercantalism). Burghers add another +50%. So if you want to blockade a province, chances are your blockade is doing almost nothing -- especially later in the game with higher-level buildings, higher mercantalism, etc.

Say you have low-average naval tradition (20) and you blockade a province of a major trade province of a nation with base mercantalism early in the game (15th-16th centuries -- it only gets worse later for blockades due to better buildings even though blockading and navies historically affected nations more). This is what you're looking at mathematically affecting the province's trade power:

-20% (naval tradition)
-75% (blockade)
+25% (coastal)
+20% (mercantalism)
+50% (marketplace)
+50% (burghers)

So this province, part of a pretty standard trading nation stat-wise still has a +50% net effect on its trade power modifier even while blockaded. That's right -- its base trade power is still boosted compared to its base even when fully blockaded. This probably amounts to less of an income decrease than a single bad die roll in a battle over the course of the war. It's completely negligible. Blockades do next to nothing, even to large trade powers like Venice since their trade power bonuses stack to make the blockades even less effective. And as I said before, blockades are somehow less effective later in the game when blockades became historically more important!

If blockades had their numbers reworked (even on trade power alone, let alone production/tax income) that itself could open up a big purpose to navies and different ship types (since heavies are horrible blockaders). It'd make the trade CBs more than a joke since a losing nation could have its economy crippled by a blockade, especially if it relies highly on trade income.
 
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User4035

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I'd vote for remove sailors but I don't have twitter.

I honestly don't know why they added it to the game. Many of us voiced our feedback when they added it asking 'what does it add to the game?'.
 
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Das Kaffinator

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I for one would like to see it kept but changed to require more meaningful decisions. I like the idea of increasing the amount of sailors required for ships and drastically lowering the number of sailors available. I would also suggest that the sailor pool represents those people who are willing to become sailors. Once you run out of sailors that would not prevent you from building new ships, but the province you build it in and the provinces surrounding them would gain unrest due to the conscription of sailors. Perhaps 1% per 100 sailors recruited? Docks could be changed to reduce that unrest penalty instead of adding to the general sailor pool. This would represent a larger pool of willing sailors, but only in the area around the docks you build.
 
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User4035

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I for one would like to see it kept but changed to require more meaningful decisions. I like the idea of increasing the amount of sailors required for ships and drastically lowering the number of sailors available. I would also suggest that the sailor pool represents those people who are willing to become sailors. Once you run out of sailors that would not prevent you from building new ships, but the province you build it in and the provinces surrounding them would gain unrest due to the conscription of sailors. Perhaps 1% per 100 sailors recruited? Docks could be changed to reduce that unrest penalty instead of adding to the general sailor pool. This would represent a larger pool of willing sailors, but only in the area around the docks you build.

....just use manpower for ships. Its so simple.
 
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paulatreides0

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I said it before and I'll say it again: Sailors were an inherently flawed idea, and they will pretty much always be. The game simply has too many levels of abstraction to ever make sailors of any use.

First and foremost, ironically they achieve the opposite effect of what they are meant to achieve. The original point of sailors was to act as some sort of constraint on navy size and reinforcement in the same way that manpower is for armies. The problem, however, is that you were actually more limited in this regard under the old manpower-based system because manpower was relatively scarce, especially if you were fighting lots of wars, until the mid-to-late game. Thus you actually had to actually choose between land forces that offered actual fighting capacity or new ships and, moreover, you could find yourself unable to field all your ships effectively because your manpower simply couldn't keep up. With sailors being an actual thing, however, that is practically never an issue anymore because is it's own separate pool and there simply isn't enough naval warfare or attrition of naval personnel to make the system work with it's own pool unless you ridiculously nerf either pool size or pool recovery rate to the point that they are painful instead of fun or interesting.

Secondly, the system makes very little sense at a conceptual level. It's the same thing with all the people in the HoI forums requesting specific pilot pools. It makes no sense because it assumes that pilots, or in this case sailors, were some magical breed of untrainable ubermensch that just existed and no one but the specially chosen could do the job. The stark reality of the matter, however, is that the vast majority of sailors were just guys taken off the street and trained in how to sail. A guy from Bourgogne might have ended up in the French Navy simply because he joined or was conscripted into the navy or the merchant marine, but in EUIV, for some reason, only provinces that exist on the coast can produce these magical men of the sea. Sure, there were times of sailor constraints, but this is little different from how there were manpower constraints for the army, farming, production, etc. Practically speaking, in so far as EUIV is concerned, sailor shortages are only really worth noting during war-time when you don't necessarily have the time to train people how to be sailors (hence why impressment was a thing, and why it was very, very rare outside of war-time) - and even then, it can be argued that the cases where naval manpower were so thin and worn down that it was noteworthy are relatively few and far between. In short, this means that the cases for why we should add sailors are practically outliers.

But, some of you say: "What about as a fleet cap? What if we had ships have a monthly maintenance cost of sailors?" We already have a fleet cap, fleets already drain money, and if we are going to make them drain manpower...why not just make them drain actual manpower? And if we have to use sailors to constrain total fleet size like that, then we might as well just rebalance the fleet size calculation to begin with and fix that problem directly. It's a really roundabout way of going about limiting fleet size. Not only that, it would wreck the naval game as many small nations that fielded large navies such as Denmark, Portugal, and the Netherlands (as well as England and Castille too, unless they do some major expanding) would quickly find themselves unable to field even mid-sized navies because of their monthly sailor drain sucking away their sailors...oh, and it'll take forever to reinforce the navy that they do have. Either way the sailor is just another manpower pool and a largely unnecessary one because in the vast majority of cases there is no real reason to explicitly separate sailors from manpower. All it does is mean that idea slots that can be greatly useful +manpower ideas, or other, more useful ideas, become practically useless +sailor ideas that are only worth having in a small number of cases and make plus naval cap ideas worthless unless you

If we had to have another manpower pool, which I don't honestly even think we really need, I would infinitely prefer an officer manpower pool to sailors, because at least that would make sense. In the majority of case you can't just take a random joe off the street and make him an officer, there's far better reasons for them to be scarce and a separate pool (e.g. specialization, literacy, education, etc.) than there ever was for sailors. It would also mean that we could tie army performance to the officer corp kind of like what we had in HoI 3. The old manpower for navies system worked fine - the only real change I think it needs is a simple preference slider that would let me give either the land army, the navy, or neither (that is to say equal) reinforcement priority.

And if we instead want to make the navy worth worrying about, make them more interesting. Add actual fleet management and fleets composed of a variety of ships, not just heavies or, if you are in the Med until the late game, galleys. Better integrate foreign supply with naval mechanics. Better integrate trade with naval mechanics and control of sea lanes. You know, the actual things that navies did during the time period. Fleets would be vastly more interesting if instead of asking myself how many heavies I wanted to build, I asked myself what a proper balance of frigates, 4th rates, 3rd rates, 2nd rates, and 1st rates would be for my fleet.

tl;dr: Sailors make no logical, and very little historical, sense given the game's level of abstraction and only lead to sillyness. It also almost inherently achieves the opposite of what it sets out to do unless it's made so punishing that it's no fun and it cripples even the big naval nations - sure, some intensive amount of balancing might result in a usable system, but that's time wasted on a rather minor feature that adds very little when we already have a fleet cap and when the naval game would hugely benefit from naval and fleet mechanics, far more so than from sailors.
 
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Have naval attrition and battle damage cost sailors. Create a mechanic whereby sailors can be pressed from your merchant fleets, but at a cost to your trade efficiency until your sailor pool recovers.

Overall, though, this is nitpicky. The entire naval system sucks, and has sucked since EU3, at least. It needs a total rethink to be relevant.
 

Ulec

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@Johan

- Make the sailor pool larger.
- Make sailor regen a lot slower.
- Increase sailor cost for ship repairs/recovery but reduce for the initial construction (I know, makes little sense as the crew numbers would more or so be static, but gameplay wise it works better. Let me know if you have a better idea to address this issue.)
- Allow navies to siege coastal provinces but only cause a loss of garrison and not actually grant control of the province. If done for a while, have it stuck at 100% till you put an army in there for it to capture over a month. Make this automatic upon reaching 100% blockade in a sea tile but increase the amount of ships necessary to reach 100% blockade by a good margin depending on the number of enemy forts the sea tile neighbours.
- Add a 'bombard' button as a naval counterpart to 'assault' to buy yourself even more siege time if you don't care that much about that stack of ships' health.
- Double the naval building sailor modifiers (Play around with the numbers at the very least; 'double' is quite arbitrary here).
- Put a button to convert sailors to manpower and manpower to sailors, perhaps costing a small mil point fee.

I myself hate navies and naval gameplay and love the game as it currently is, almost completely land focused. Yet, despite how much it'd inconvenience me, having navies actually matter like they did a tonne within the timeframe (and I mean A TONNE) would add a new and a much necessary layer of strategic depth and overall make the game more enjoyable, breaking the linearity of just amassing armies and having only maybe one or two nations benefitting from ships due to their geopolitical locations (England).

Galley Lives Matter


OR just remove it, return to the use of manpower for ships, but allow us to construct ships ready for combat for, say, x1.5 of the gold cost if we refuse to use manpower and choose to use gold instead, just like mercs. So the crew will be paid for too rather than conscripted.
 
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I actually like the idea of sailors, but the numbers aren't what they need to be to make it a factor. Any mid size nation with a sort of coast is going to have more than plenty for it's needs. Cost is the only meaningful barrier by present design.

I'd change it instead so that island provinces (any province that has no land connection, straits excepted) get a base buff to sailor production and naval force limit, at least similar to what they are now. You could have a smaller 'peninsula class' buff if a province has one land connection only, and an 'isthmus class' buff if it has two. Most coastal provinces have three or more, yet they have the same impact on naval power, that doesn't make sense for me.

A change like that would truly make Venice more than equal to the Ottomans in naval power for longer, until the OE takes Greece and naval ideas, or conquers elsewhere and gets even bigger, just as an example, because of the types of provinces it owns.
 
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Well, turns out sailors was easy. Just add "sailors=X" in the actual unit file (i.e threedecker.txt)
Unfortunately, I tried every combination for cost, gold, ducats, and price that I could think of. Doesn't affect the base price.
Oh well! 1 out of 2 isn't bad. Thanks for the assist.
Hmm... yeah... that might be a bit trickier... You might need to have it by event... But then again... there is already events that increase/decrease cost of ships... So would basically just copy-paste that and do the same as sailors :)
 
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MiniaAr

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I'd much rather see sailors rebalanced or redesigned rather than simply removed. Some ideas I've had on the topic:
  • Part of the problem is that sailors are so plentiful that unless you're an OPM you almost never run out of them. Manpower, on the other hand, is typically a resource you watch much more closely. When manpower runs out you still have your regiments, you just can't use them. Imagine if naval combat worked similarly, you still have all or most of your ships, but they're sitting uselessly in port because you don't have enough sailors to man them (this ties in with the point below about uncoupling hull and sailor damage). Drop the amount of sailors from provinces a bit, and make docks actually worth getting if you want to have a navy.
    • I don't think mercenary sailors make much sense, but having some way to increase them when you run out at the cost of unrest or something similar might be nice; maybe give the merchant guilds estate an option to impress sailors like the noble estate has the option to raise levies for more manpower. That way it couldn't be used too often, but is still there as an emergency sailor reserve if you need it.
    • Possibly shuffle the bonuses naval buildings give around a bit too: right now, shipyards give three good bonuses, and docks give one bonus to a resource that you never need more of, making it an absolute no-brainer which to build. Maybe give docks the increased naval force limit ability, since they could represent more space to actually berth ships, while shipyards could be focused on building and repairing ships faster.
  • I've love to see naval combat changed so sailor damage is untied from a direct one-to-one ratio with ship hull damage, which makes no sense.
    • Naval combat uses fire and shock phases, so maybe make the shock phase more likely to kill sailors and less likely to damage hulls. Make ships with low sailors more likely to be captured; I'd love to see more back-and-forth in naval combats, where both sides kill a bunch of sailors on the other side, maybe capture a few ships, but don't really sink that many. I'd imagine most of the time during this time period capturing ships rather than sinking them would be a high priority. High shock admirals could be better for capturing ships (and preventing your own from being captured), while high fire admirals could be better at just sinking enemy ships.
    • Ship attrition at sea should be changed from hull damage (which makes no sense, at least not on the scale of a few months at sea) to losing sailors. It should be possible to lose all the sailors on a ship and have it become a ghost ship that could be found and claimed by anyone. No more "We sent a newly-built ship out to sea for a few months and its hull mysteriously melted away until it sank!" (What are we building the hulls out of, sugar?) Then Dip tech 23 (or whatever it is) could realistically stop the sailor attrition from scurvy. (Sure a little hull damage should happen from being out at sea, but realistically all the sailors would be dead long before a ship would sink from deterioration. Maybe like, 5% hull damage per year without repair, or something.)
  • Navies still have very little impact on wars, unless it's a special case like England defending its islands from invasion. What if fleets could, in addition to merely blockading provinces, occupy coastal provinces? That would give them the ability to give more warscore, occupy enemy land (and the benefits that gives), make it much easier to occupy isolated islands, and make it actually worthwhile defending your coasts during a war. (This is definitely a more "experimental" idea on my part; I'm sure there are ramifications to allowing this that I haven't thought of.)
  • I also like the idea other people have given of making ships gradually require more sailors as time goes by. If late-game heavy ships are requiring 500-800 sailors each that might solve the problem of having too many without needing to rebalance the amount of sailors received.
Some great ideas here. Those I like the most:
- Fire damage affeting hull and shock damage affecting sailors is also a great one.
- Docks/Shipyards need to be rebalanced. Right now, as a naval power you can build shipyards in all your coastline and no docks at all. It would be much more interesting to have a faster building/repair (shipyard) and a sailor/naval fl (dock) choice. If you built only docks, than building your navy would take forever, and if you built only shipyard, you won't be able to expand your navy past a certain point. Thus, you'd have to build both.
 
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Fluffy_Fishy

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There are a lot of gameplay discussions here, but not much reference to history outside of Fluffy_Fishy's posts. I can't help, unfortunately, as I know little about naval history in any period. But IMO the first question in EU should be "What are we trying to model?" rather than "What system is interesting?" EU is fun because of the ways the various models in the game intersect naturally with one another, not because it's engineered for "fun gameplay". That kind of engineering is why I gave up on Civ.

Any implementation of "Sailors" similar to what we have now is a limiting factor, just as manpower limits army recruitment. So, historically, what were the limiting factors on nations fielding strong navies? Did countries ever "run out of sailors"? I don't have historical evidence at hand, but maybe Fluffy or others can elaborate. My impression is that filling boats with people was not the issue - as noted above, most of the men on a ship were a rough lot, sometimes pressed into service. Certainly the raw cost in materials and time to build ships mattered, and we've got that in the game already. But officer quality may well have been a factor too, not in the sense of individually brilliant admirals with tactical insights, but in having a small cadre of well-trained officers to handle the more skilled tasks on ships. That might be modeled with a system somewhat like Naval Tradition, with a point value that increases over time as your navy gains experience and less skilled sailors develop into more skilled veterans. That value might limit the maximum number of ships that can operate at full strength - beyond that, a sovereign might build ships but lack skilled officers to command them, incurring a combat/trade penalty. But again, I don't know the history here. Maybe personnel really wasn't the issue compared to the material investment of building the ships themselves. In that case, just drop the idea entirely and make it purely about money and time.

The game already abstracts ship costs as a general rule. Naval maintenence was much higher, but because navies are pretty useless in the game they can't charge sensible figures. A ship was much more expensive to maintain than an infantry regiment and it's not uncommon for ships to have a life expectancy of around 15 years as a general rule. On top of this a ship might spend between 1/4 and 1/3 of its lifetime in dockyards being serviced, having the caulking redone or the planking scraped, repainted or replaced, compering changed this and allowed for ships to need far less maintenence but still meant that naval supply costs were high, but the game of naval dominance was a high cost high reward game to play. If you look at the history of the ottoman navy, perhaps the most unsuccessful major navy in history they still pump huge amounts of costly resources into trying to claw their way into naval supremecy because it was so important respectively.

When it comes to sailors themselves they were a significant portion of a crew, sailing was a sought after skill and reality is that you couldn't just employ someone on the same terms as you would with standard military unit because sailing and naval warfare is much more difficult as a concept. Naval gunnery was a much harder skill to learn than standard artillery use as there are so many more variables to learn about. Crews would also be expected to be able to take part in multiple tasks aboard the ship and have good proficiency in lots of tasks while maintaining a specialism when it came to battle, reality is the only people aboard a ship that aren't highly skilled in multiple disciplines are generally the marines, who declined in numbers all throughout the period of the game. When it comes to navies running out of sailors it did happen, the most famous example is in ancient history during the peloppnnesian war, where one side offered a significantly increased pay packet over their opponents, emptying the enemy fleet over night. There are also quite a few lesser known examples of navies finding difficulty raising crews that plagued most nations at some point in history, sailors would be reluctant to join an inferior navy in a war because there was a higher rate of attrition in navies than armies and adding extreme danger to the mix of serving on the inferior side really hampered recruitment. There wouldn't all this talk of press gangs and galley slaves if it weren't difficult for a nation to field an effective crew, when it comes to examples the best one I know would be venice who had the cash and manufacturing ability to raise a huge navy in moments notice but where they struggled was finding the crew to sail them, so significant naval losses were devastating to them as a nation.

Sailors are one of the most finite parts of a navy and their numbers were the real restriction to naval force limits, with some international work supplementing a country's home grown crew, crew are also the most expensive part of a ship and comprised around 80% of the costs, especially during the late game. The only other thing that restricted naval investment so much was the cost of casting guns, where most navies had a severe deficit in working cannons and could often rarely outfit their ships with the amount required for full effectiveness.

I hope this offers a bit more insight into ow things worked, if you want any more details on something please do ask :)
 
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paulatreides0

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If you look at the history of the ottoman navy, perhaps the most unsuccessful major navy in history they still pump huge amounts of costly resources into trying to claw their way into naval supremecy because it was so important respectively.

Uh, what? By what metric? The Ottoman Navy was a fairly powerful navy for much of the EUIV period, and it pretty much dominated the Mediterranian/Arabian Seas until the last century or so of the period.

When it comes to sailors themselves they were a significant portion of a crew, sailing was a sought after skill and reality is that you couldn't just employ someone on the same terms as you would with standard military unit because sailing and naval warfare is much more difficult as a concept. Naval gunnery was a much harder skill to learn than standard artillery use as there are so many more variables to learn about. Crews would also be expected to be able to take part in multiple tasks aboard the ship and have good proficiency in lots of tasks while maintaining a specialism when it came to battle, reality is the only people aboard a ship that aren't highly skilled in multiple disciplines are generally the marines, who declined in numbers all throughout the period of the game.

Which just meant that it takes longer to train sailors than it does foot soldiers or artillerymen...which is already represented by ships taking substantially longer to build than regiments. And higher reinforcement costs, although ships could also use some longer repair times.

When it comes to navies running out of sailors it did happen, the most famous example is in ancient history during the peloppnnesian war, where one side offered a significantly increased pay packet over their opponents, emptying the enemy fleet over night. There are also quite a few lesser known examples of navies finding difficulty raising crews that plagued most nations at some point in history, sailors would be reluctant to join an inferior navy in a war because there was a higher rate of attrition in navies than armies and adding extreme danger to the mix of serving on the inferior side really hampered recruitment. There wouldn't all this talk of press gangs and galley slaves if it weren't difficult for a nation to field an effective crew, when it comes to examples the best one I know would be venice who had the cash and manufacturing ability to raise a huge navy in moments notice but where they struggled was finding the crew to sail them, so significant naval losses were devastating to them as a nation.

Sure, just like running out of manpower or not having adequate manpower to field an adequately sized army was an issue, especially for the large naval powers that needed to devote significant amounts of manpower to either the navy or the logistical tail end of the navy. I mean, impressment doesn't show much other than that manpower shortages existed, and they existed as much in armies as they did in navies. Impressment, while largely a naval phenomena, was by no means an exclusively naval phenomena, and happened with armies as well, although to a lesser degree for a large variety of reasons.

I can see very little reason for having sailors be their own dedicated pool that suck up mechanics and ideas when manpower does the job more than adequately. If anything, manpower does a better job because it also helps to ably represent that nations had to *choose* between army primacy and navy primacy, because they only had a finite amount of manpower manpower and they had to focus on either one or the other unless they were, comparatively speaking, massive. Instead the manpower/sailor divide allows the navy and the army to exist in their own little world where a nation doesn't need to focus the distribution of its manpower and where, for some strange reason, not being born in a coastal town somehow makes you inherently inept from knowing how to sail.

If we want to add manpower pools there are significantly better pools to focus on (e.g. officers), and if we want to enhance naval gameplay, there are significantly better ways of doing that too (e.g. actual fleet mechanics).
 
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Philadelphus

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The problem, however, is that you were actually more limited in this regard under the old manpower-based system because manpower was relatively scarce, especially if you were fighting lots of wars, until the mid-to-late game. Thus you actually had to actually choose between land forces that offered actual fighting capacity or new ships and, moreover, you could find yourself unable to field all your ships effectively because your manpower simply couldn't keep up.
Um, ships didn't use manpower prior to the addition of sailors…? I just booted into 1.15 to check.
 
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MiniaAr

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Yes ships never used manpower. Sailors was/is intended as a mapower-like mechanism for navies.

I think the concept is great, just that the implementation is lacking. Indeed, sailors are pretty meaningless at the moment, but it doesn't have to be.
I 100% against a complete removal of sailors without something else to compensate. I could get convinced by the people here arguing for the use of manpower for navies. But I would still prefer to keep sailors and tweak them so that they have a more significant impact.
 
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perhje

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They should make it able for sailors to occupy one coastal province for each thousand sailor in the ships in the adjacent sea province. Also if you have enough sailors/guns in a siege of a coastal fort you should be able to even get a plus 1 to siege pip to the siege or get siege ability based on fort vs guns/sailors. If two or more forts are blockaded by the same ships they will naturally be split between ongoing sieges.

This could also be tied in some way to the new devastasion system announced for 1.20. Based on fort level vs sailors you will devastate the coastal provinces of your enemies. This will differ from blockade somewhat since blockades are based on ship speed and isn't(as far as I am aware) based on how damaged the ship is.
 
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