Johan, how much do you get to play?

[unmerged(9191)]

Just wondering if you ever get to actually play the game (besides testing stuff). You do ALOT of work so I highly doubt you do but if I may suggest if you ever get some free time you play a campaign as England and Portugal. I think you'll learn alot of valuble stuff.

-How extremely weak navies still are
-The insane amounts of money you can make by trade (tone down the trade value or something..you will think of something)
-How money is not a factor post 1570 (you get SO much)
-How much manpower countries like france and the OE really get (you'll feel this as England).
-How easy colonizing is (there has been many posts with suggestions).
-How much you can recruit outside europe in your colonies ( i once raised 50K in 3 years as England in lenape around 1560)
-How cheap troops are


I think you will think of a few changes on your own for sure. Im not saying any of this is your fault i mean you superhuman with how fast your patch's come out.

But I for 1 can live with a delay for any more beta's or the official version to let you get a little playing is. You only need to get to 1610 or so before you realize this stuff.

 

[JohnMK]

The only point of yours I really agree with is that yes countries do indeed tend to become too rich when run by humans. I'd like to see trade efficiency increase more slowly as well as production efficiency, perhaps after tech 4, increase at 4% per level instead of 5%. After infra tech 5, production efficiency goes up 10% per level. Too much probably.

The fact that you don't think navies are useful really is evidence of your own limited experience. How much do you get to play?

 

[Garbon]

He's playing right now

 

[unmerged(547)]

If I suspect right, my guess would be that Johann is a "workaholic" (judging by the quality and volume of his deeds). Therefore, I think that his work and play may be one in the same.

 

[unmerged(9191)]

Originally posted by JohnMK

The fact that you don't think navies are useful really is evidence of your own limited experience. How much do you get to play?

The fact is I dont need them for troop transport (after the early game). I only need a small little group to ruin a naval landing. Blockading is now useful but could still be nicer.

Exploring is only allowed after level 41 (something like that).

The only times there absoulutely neccessary is to get islands.

And I know he plays...but not neccessarly for fun (which im sure it is) but more or less just to test stuff out.

 

[JohnMK]

Well sure if you always play the Papal States it's not so useful.

 

[Garbon]

Originally posted by Doc
If I suspect right, my guess would be that Johann is a "workaholic" (judging by the quality and volume of his deeds). Therefore, I think that his work and play may be one in the same.

Oh, of course

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

Navies weak!?

The navies that allow England to prevent landings on their fair Isle or can force those who attack Sweden to take the long march through snow-covered Finland?

The navies that allow you to rapidly deploy forces across the mediterranean as Spain or the Ottoman Empire?

The navies that allow you to bring overwhelming concentrations of forces to bear on other players' colonial holdings, overrunning their substantial colonial defense forces, and which allows you to keep ferrying in troops from staging areas faster than they can be recruited in the colonies still under the enemies control - and prevent him from reinforcing?

The navies that can blockade harbours and increase the supply limits of the province they are blockading?

I would not exactly call them weak. I would rather say that they are an essential tool of anyone who does not want to stay a regional power.

As for France and OE getting huge amounts of manpower, I am sure that Johan knows it and that it is intentional. If you did not feel left behind in the manpower race as England, something would indeed be wrong.

 

[unmerged(15623)]

I disagree with the manpower part. Franch should get at least 2-3 times more manpower than England and the Ottomans should have nearly endless supply of manpower.

The problem with this is that manpower is too important pre-18th century. Perhaps removing increased support limit from manpower altogether in early tech levels. You should then get it back with more tech - most (2/3) of the increases being concentrated in the late 20s and early 30s.

 

[unmerged(9191)]

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen
Navies weak!?

The navies that allow England to prevent landings on their fair Isle or can force those who attack Sweden to take the long march through snow-covered Finland?

This isn't exactly hard to do. Drop transports move troops. If you want to attack England simply land in scotland. As for Sweeden, it helps sometimes but marching through Finland is NOT an issue. Yea you lose a little to attrition but you lose guys to attrition when there at sea too.

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen

The navies that allow you to rapidly deploy forces across the mediterranean as Spain or the Ottoman Empire?

All you need 5 transport...warships are big expensive and pretty useless currently (except blockading)

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen

The navies that allow you to bring overwhelming concentrations of forces to bear on other players' colonial holdings, overrunning their substantial colonial defense forces, and which allows you to keep ferrying in troops from staging areas faster than they can be recruited in the colonies still under the enemies control - and prevent him from reinforcing?

You ship em from the homeland, ill spend time building them locally. Yea you can move some more by shipment thats true, but again just a few transports can do that. Lets not forget that getting 30K up in a colony can be done in 3 years (in some places) and probabally more easily.

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen

The navies that can blockade harbours and increase the supply limits of the province they are blockading?

Yup there biggest use right now

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen

I would not exactly call them weak. I would rather say that they are an essential tool of anyone who does not want to stay a regional power.

I would. Yea you still need them but compared to RL there are VERY weak.

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen

As for France and OE getting huge amounts of manpower, I am sure that Johan knows it and that it is intentional. If you did not feel left behind in the manpower race as England, something would indeed be wrong.

I think Spain, Austria, England coalition should be able to doutble the manpower of France ..which is not how it is now.

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by Imperial Army

All you need 5 transport...warships are big expensive and pretty useless currently (except blockading)

Only if the other side believes navies are weak, like you do. If he, instead, has invested in warships (or galleys), your transports are not going to allow you to transport troops around in wartime without fear of interdiction, sending both ships and troops to the bottom of the sea.

 

[RedPhoenix]

I think war exhaustion rising now, has fixed the recruit problem in colonies, when taking war taxes, which is the way to get troops in colonies fast

 

[unmerged(9191)]

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen
Only if the other side believes navies are weak, like you do. If he, instead, has invested in warships (or galleys), your transports are not going to allow you to transport troops around in wartime without fear of interdiction, sending both ships and troops to the bottom of the sea.

well If i add 1 warship i can run at the start of the battle so you could never destroy the navy.

 

[JohnMK]

Not if you're lagging.

 

[Caesar Augustus]

Perhaps the navy would never be destroyed per se. But it sure wouldn't get the troops where you want them. I'm playing England right now, and let me tell you, I would be totally open for destruction if it weren't for the 70 warships off the coast, let me tell you. Oh, and they are also useful to keep a watch on your neighbors. I've had one ship (usually a transport) off the coast of the Netherlands for 2 decades now, occassionally sailing back to Anglia for supplies. One gripe, though. I think that you should be able to see ships off of your coast before you get the higher naval tech, at the very least if and when troops start to offload. Sure, it was possible to stay just out of view of land, but how can you say that it is possible to do so while troops are getting off?

 

[unmerged(12740)]

one very powerful aspect of navies has not been mentioned here:

that is, a navy blockading a port halves the province's income & can effectively make it impossible to raise troops.

for example, in a recent game as tuscany, i went to war w/ genoa b/c they had declared war on my ally milan. genoa had a much larger fleet than tuscany & so blockaded my port. even w/ war taxes i had an income/annum of 1 ducat! i cld not raise troops naturally so every loan had to be spent on mercenaries. near crippled myself beating genoa & got nothing tangible out of it outside of saving milan b/c i cldn't land troops on corsica, much less kaffa.

i played sweden once & early in the game got into a war w/ denmark. at the beginning the swedish fleet is much smaller than the danish fleet & they did the same thing in terms of blockading my harbors & again i lost considerable ability to raise troops not just in terms of troops available to build but in terms of income.

this was against the ai. a human player cld use his navies to much more effect. that is, if i were playing a human genoa, i wld have been annexed or vassalized, no question. i wld have had to make a very disadvantageous peace w/ denmark had denmark been human.

i think there's room for making navies stronger & more important, but to suggest that they are not strong now strikes me as off.

 

[Johan]

Originally posted by Imperial Army
Just wondering if you ever get to actually play the game.

14 hours MP today for example.

And I don't agree with your opinion at all on navies.

 

[unmerged(9895)]

navies weak....yes, if your land-locked bohemia

navies strong....yes, england does not even need an army to defend itself most of the time.

a few things could be added.....

....high level navies could destroy provincal improvements (forts, manufacturies) if they are blockading the port province while a battle if fought in it.....those cannons can get pretty nasty

also, they could also reduce the morale of troops defending a port province that is blockaded because they will be under constant bombardment......try fighting a battle the morning after you did not get any rest because you were rained on all night because a cannon ball took your roof off.

just some spontaneous ideas

 

[unmerged(9191)]

hmm Nobody commented on anything else.

But anyways, I say navies are weak because:
1) You can build a huge amount of oversees troops (still).
2) A couple transports (cheap) are all you need for all troop movement.
3) Naval battles are so up in the air its hard to concentrate a naval campaign since your 20 ships can lose to 3 with lower tech...
4) Blockading (which is much better not) still is not effective enough.
5) Unless the country has just 1 or 2 ports its almost impossible to stop there trade income from oversees (England, France, Spain, Sweden, Denmark, Ottomans come to mind)
6) Unless your England, Netherlands or Portugal you navy isn't really needed for homeland defence (As France, Denmark, Sweden and Spain it is nice to be able to stop some invasions but you can usually beat them off with land troops. So if my budget is tight my navy is the 1st thing cut)
7) They provide no bounus in battle (which they did historically, look at the American Revolution or even the American civil war and you will see how much they could help. England was able to just pound the american coast and demoralize them and the Union forced the confederates to march further inland..through less organized area to avoid the fire)
8) They dont help enough during a siege.
9) Early game attrition is a killer so you cant invade anyone more then 3 sea zones away without losing a ship or 2 and also a couple army units (EX: As England attacking Jutland 1 ship is usually lost atleast...)
10) The fact you cant see off your coasts at the games start makes defending the isles nearly impossible unless you want to micro ever little detail thus if you forget all that naval power isn't doing much. And wasting ships patroling your coast is a pain since if you do need to use em you lose your coast protection.

Perhaps i spoke to strongly when I said very weak. But the do need to be stronger. A few improvements I can think of are:
1) If you have ships off the coast of an enemy, you get +1 fire value in battle.
2)If you ahve ships off the coast the enemy gets .10 less morale
3) combine 1&2 (which I would then make warships VERY useful) also make it tech dependent so you can only do it say naval 5.
4) Make it if you control 1/2 there ports they only make half the value of overseas trade.
5) If you control 2/3 of there ports they only get 1/3 there oversees trade.
6) If the province is being blockaded they all promotion,build orders and upgrades are halted.
7) If a province is being blockaded they cannot promote anyone, build troops or upgrade forts.
8) You see off your coasts at start.
9) further hurt overseas recruting
10) If no sea route can be traced to home land they dont receive any oversees trade income past that point (EX: Im Spain and have 1 line of sea zones to zanibar. If i go to war with france and he has ships in that line I dont get income from zanibar).

Also Kris Kannons idea's are nice.

 

[unmerged(12740)]

imperial army: i don't think that navies are weak, but i do think some of your ideas have merit.

i'm not sure about seeing of your coasts, though, nor a couple of cheap transports is all that's needed for troop movement -- contradicted, incidentally, by your other complaint about high attrition early in the game -- & why, b/c navies are important for some nations & not for others, navies are therefore not powerful. it has always been the case that landlocked nations weren't interested in navies & it has always been the case that island nations or nations w/ considerable overseas possessions/trading were very interested in navies. that seems adequately represented in the game, to me, at least.