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Descartes

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Oct 12, 2008
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Right now, I'm working on far too many aspects of the mod at the same time (overload!). It would be very nice if someone helped me out a bit. Helping me will earn you a line in the credit list and, more importantly, my ever-lasting friendship. Not to mention that I'll also mod your real life for free (more fertility and less rivals could be pretty useful, for example).

The task I have in mind is actually quite fun, and I'd definitely do it myself if I had the time. We're talking about picking military inventions for the period between 1 and 727 AUC and adapting them for the game.

Each invention needs to have...
  1. ...a title (not too long)
  2. ...an effect (balanced and logical)
  3. ...a description (not longer than 75 symbols)

I'd also prefer if you include the country where it was first recorded. You can divide the work as you like, and post your inventions here.

Cheers,
Descartes
 
Here are some, out of left field and applicable to the Parthians, Nabateans and Seleucids (and Bactrians if we had them). Ptolemy II was the first to import camels into egypt.

:D

Arabian Camel Saddle
Effect - allows for combat camels - cavalry and camel archers
Desc - invented sometime after 500BC it consisted of two large arches or saddle bows shaped like inverted Vs, connected by sticks, and resting on pads set in front of and behind the hump. A rider could sit firmly upon cushions placed on the saddle; hang equipment and supplies from it; and fight from it effectively, even using spears and long swords, as well as missile weapons. He would also have had an easier time controlling the animal, using a bridle and reins as well as a stick on occasion.

Dromedary Camels
Effect - scare horses and better in deserts, bad in wet climates, carry heavy loads in hot climates (reduce attrition increase trade)
Desc - adapted to hot, arid climates and a mainly flat terrain. Their feet are broad, flat, leathery pads, with two toes on each foot, designed to keep them from sinking in the sand.

Bactrian Camels
Effect - scare horses and better in cold mountains, carry heavy loads in cold mountainous climates(reduce attrition increase trade), not as good as the dromedary in combat
Desc - the Bactrian camel is adapted to cold, mountainous areas, with long, darker-coloured hair, shorter legs and a more massive doubled humped body than the dromedary, which is adapted to hot, arid climates and a mainly flat terrain.

Parthian Ammunition Carriers
Effect - extra damage for mounted archers or a moral boost
Desc - the Parthians used two humped Bacterian camels as ammunition carriers for their mounted infantry.

Parthian Camel Cataphracts (these were a failure)
Effect - extra defence and attack for camel cavaley
Desc - the Cataphract Camel is nevertheless an extremely formidable opponent. They are extremely heavy, and well-armed; in addition, the smell of camel tends to frighten horses. Carrying spears and maces like ordinary horse cataphracts, these units are equally unstoppable against both infantry and cavalry. Their enemies would be wise to treat them with respect.
 
Here are some ideas for you. They are kind of doctriney and I was mostly thinking of Rome , but they are fairly applicable to any society for the most part. If you use any of them, no credit is necessary.

Title: Heavy Reserve Infantry
Effect: Morale increase, Organization Regain increase
Desc. The developement of a reserve component made up of well equipped veterans helps to both stabilize a line of battle and provide tactical flexibility in the event of a retreat being called.
Example: Triarii

Title: Flexibility
Effect: Units gain experience more quickly and lose it more slowly
Desc: Military/political willingness to adopt superior equipment and techniques encountered on the battlefield gives the army a decided advantage over our more conservative neighbors.
Example: Roman adoption of Spanish swords, Celtic helmets, Etruscan tactics

Title: Military Medicine
Effect: Trickleback bonus (if possible) or Manpower bonus + reinforcement bonus
Desc. Practical medicine as understood for battlefield application was standardized and finally reached it's apogee with the establishment of dedicated medical corps.
Example: Well developed Roman medical gear, terminology and organization culminating with Augustan reforms to produce dedicated Medical corps.

Title: Sanitation and Encampment
Effect: Reduced attrition
Desc. The construction of standardized camps complete with latrine, mess and watch rotations limit loses due to disease and misadventure during the campaign season.
Example: Camps, latrines, baths and general attitudes towards cleanliness

Title: Discipline
Effect: Organization Bonus
Desc. Implementation of standardized training and punishment regimes ensure that planning on both a tactical and strategic level can be pursued with confidence.
Example: Relatively standard chain of command as well as punishment routines and methods.

Title: Honors and Titles
Effect: Morale bonus
Desc. The universal inculcation of military ideals in addition to time hallowed forms and functions supports and strengthens our armies.
Example: Legionary eagles, myth of Roman invincibility, the power of tradition

edit: Having read the previous ideas from Hardradi I'm not even sure this is the kind of thing you're looking for but either way I'm really looking forward to Imperium 2.0. Keep up the good work and thanks from a fan!

edit 2: more ideas

Title: Military Logistics
Effect: Manpower bonus
Desc. The establishment of dedicated supply storage and transportation procedures in addition to an organized commissariat meant that armies could campaign outside of the regular season when and where forage was not available to them making more men immediately available at need.

Title: Combined Arms (?)
Effect: Attack bonus
Desc. Experience with the cooperative use of Cavalry, light and heavy infantry, and light siege weapons eventually matures into a tactical understanding of how best to use every aspect of military technology in mutual support.

Title: Military Engineering
Effect: Movement bonus
Desc. Armies trained and equipped to construct temporary roads, bridges and transport watercraft enjoy significant advantages in movement, particularly in enemy territory.

Title: Siege Engineering
Effect: Siege Bonus
Desc. Beyond the mere possession of siege equipment, a knowledge of both military engineering and logistics allows an army to lay siege to a city more efficiently by identifying weak points in enemy fortifications and interdicting supply in otherwise unfamiliar territory.

Title: Reconnaissance and Cartography
Effect: Defense Bonus
Desc. Understanding local terrain features and their use can mean the difference between victory and defeat in battle, this includes both avoiding natural hazards and choosing the best ground for battle.

More doctriney stuff, hope some of it's useful.
 
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Title: Solid-Treed Saddle
Effect: Increase combat power of light, medium and heavy cavalry
Description: it raised the rider above the horse's back, and distributed the rider's weight on either side of the spine

First reliable documented use in Roman forces ~100 BCE
Sarmatians (Persians) ~300 BCE
Scythians and Assyrians about 700-800 BCE


Title: Throat-girth Harness
Effect: increase in food production (population increase) + culture increase + research increase
Description: Allowed oxen to more efficiently pull a load.

Sumeria and Assyria (1400 BC-800 BC)
Egypt (1570 BC-1070 BC)
Crete (2700 BC-1450 BC)
Greece (550 BC-323 BC)
Rome (510 BC-476 AD)


Title: Pilum
Effect: decreases the defense factor of forces facing Roman Heavy infantry
Description: Two meter javelin topped by a iron shank used as missile prior to charge to foul enemy shields.

Roman only ~503 BCE


Title: Viae vicinales (corduroy roads)
Effect: same effect as 'road network' + trade increase due to public nature of road
Description: road made by placing sand-covered logs perpendicular to the direction of the road

Familiar to all empires ~4000 BCE

Title: Viae publicae, consulares, praetoriae or militares (Paved roads)
Effect: +trade increase +military troop transport increase -tax revenue to represent public maintenance
Description: roads using deep roadbeds of tamped rubble as an underlying layer to ensure that they kept dry topped by fitted flat stone.
Requirements: at least one province in empire has stone (or traded for), Law of the Twelve Tables passed

Title: Law of the Twelve Tables
Effect: same as above for paved roads
Description: Standardized width and depth of paved road and who could use (rules of the road) as well as specifying who provided upkeep.

Roman ~450 BCE

As a side note with regards roads. Romans developed military roads (paved roads) as they were predominately an infantry power. Most other empires, while having roads, did not develop them to the extent Romans did and what paved roads they did have were limited to their very major city centers and only main thoroughfares.
 
Here are some ideas for you. They are kind of doctriney and I was mostly thinking of Rome , but they are fairly applicable to any society for the most part.
Good ideas! I might use some of them as NIs rather than inventions, but that's normal EU reasoning, isn't it? Thanks, mate. :)

Title: Law of the Twelve Tables
Effect: same as above for paved roads
Description: Standardized width and depth of paved road and who could use (rules of the road) as well as specifying who provided upkeep.
Are you sure about that title? :O
Otherwise very good ideas, ElmerJr.
 
Title: War Machine
Effect: Damages enemy morale
Desc.: Various offensive constructs have been developed and employed throughout the ages during armed conflicts and siegewarfare. Though rarely the decisive factor, their impact in battle should not be underestimated.
Example: Ballistae

Title: Uniform Equipment
Effect: Increases discipline (or lowers cost of unit)
Desc.: The uniformisation of military equipment ensured that troops more easily repaired, replaced and mastered the tools of their trade. Uniform equipment also insinuates military professionalism.
Example: The uniformisation during the Marian Reform.

Title: The Silver Eagles
Effect: Increases Morale
Desc.: The use of standards, banners and symbols with a religious connotations greatly bolster the morale of the troops fighting under them.
Example: The Marian Silver Eagles

EDIT2:

Title: Fortified Army Camp
Description: The Roman Legions were famous for constructing defences around their camps at the end of each halt.
Effect: The army receives a small bonus in defence.
Date: /
Nations: /

Title: Agoge
Description: The Agoge was a hard and demanding education and training regimen for all adult Spartan Citizens. It ensured that their soldiers were strong and indoctrinated. Hence the Spartan military machine had distinct advantages overshadowing the military might of the other Greek city-states through a core force of Elite Hoplites. However it had a severe impact on society ensuring rigid thinking and underlining elitism.
Effect: Heavy Infantry receives a vast bonus in discipline and morale. However there is a minus affecting the growth of the citizenry.
Date: Probably came to be around the 7th Century BC. Possibly later.
Nations: Sparta

Title: Greek Phalanx
Description: The Greek Phalanx was the main approach to warfare of the Ancient Greeks. Using a large core of Hoplite Heavy Infantry a close-knit formation was formed that though slow, intimidated and could be dreadfully effective against infantry.
Effect: The army receives a bonus against other Heavy Infantry but has a weakness versus flanking attacks.
Date: 7th Century BC
Nations: Greek World
NOTE: Hoplites needs to be unlocked.

Title: Hoplites
Description: The Heavily Armed Citizen-Soldiers of Greek Antiquity.
Effect: The Heavy Infantry is costly but more effective.
Date: 8th-7th Century
Nations: Greek World.

Title: Marian Reforms
Description: The Marian Reforms are seen as the stepping stone towards the professional Roman Army. His reforms would cause the Roman Legions to become better organized, equipped, disciplined and above all have a steady influx of recruits which remained on duty long-term. However the shift to professionalism also led to a personal link with their General who ensured that they received pay and rewards for their service.
Effect: Roman Heavy Infantry gains a great bonus in all regards. It also becomes more pricey and more likely to direct their loyalty towards their commanding general.
Date: circa 107 BC
Nations: Rome

Title: Tribal Levy
Description: Tribal Nations had a very martial society which could be described as semi-feudal. Men were tied to their lords and the upper class of society was heavily inclined towards warfare. This society allowed the Tribal Kings and lords to quickly gather forces or recruit them from their domain as the anger and fury of the local populace was sometimes easily roused. However it was difficult to maintain these unprofessional troops in the field.
Effect: Fast recruitment of light infantry. Cheap with high morale but lacking in discipline.
Date: /
Nations: Gaul, Iberia,...

Title: Tribal Warrior
Description: The elite in Tribal society formed a most martially inclined group. They were well-armed by the standards of their people and very brave. However they lacked the advanced tactics one would find in the Roman or Greek world.
Effect: Heavy Infantry is expensive and lacking in discipline but has high morale.
Date: /
Nations: Gaul, Iberia,...





I'll try to come up with a few better ones tommorow after classes. Some things like Marian Reforms are perhaps better as a law. But overall it should be the startingpoint to spawn smaller progress.
 
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Are you sure about that title? :O
Otherwise very good ideas, ElmerJr.

Like you I would have thought that they would have been in Latin, but I could not find them referred in that format from my original source. Mind you I just made a cursory look.

Law of the Twelve Tables (Lex Duodecim Tabularum) in essence was the Roman Bill of Rights. Table VII specified who was responsible for upkeep and funding certain types of roads and standardized width, right of use and rules of the road.
 
Here are a few more... :)


Title: Opus caementicium (concrete)
Effect: Building speed or cost reduction
Desc. Invention of the late republican period revolutionized the building of everything from harbours and buildings to roadways and aqueducts.

First mentioned in writing in 25BC with first underwater use by mid 1st century AD.

Title: lorica hamata
Effect: Heavy infantry defense bonus
Desc. Mail armour later replaced by lorica laminata only to be reintroduced during the late imperial period.

First known use approximately 220 BC.

Title: Lorica squamata
Effect: Heavy infantry defense Bonus
Desc. Scaled armour used by roman legionaries during the republican period and by auxiliaries after the introduction of lorica laminata.

Late republican period seems to be period of greatest use.


Title: Triremis
Effect: Naval attack bonus/speed decrease
Desc. The mainstay of most Mediterranean fleets in the ancient world, these replace lighter craft which henceforth will be mostly used for scouting.

From 7th century BC

Title: Quinqueremis
Efect: Naval attack bonus
Desc. Heavy seagoing vessel often used as the backbone of Mediterranean fleets.

From 400 BC

Title: Quadriremis
Effect: Naval speed bonus
Desc. Larger than a triremis with a greater number of rowers and incorporating the latest in naval technology.

From 325 BC

Title: Corvus
Effect: Small naval attack bonus
Desc. Boarding device used to negate some of the advantages enjoyed by superior naval forces.

From 260 BC (of limited use thereafter so small bonus)
 
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Law of the Twelve Tables (Lex Duodecim Tabularum) in essence was the Roman Bill of Rights. Table VII specified who was responsible for upkeep and funding certain types of roads and standardized width, right of use and rules of the road.
It's just that the law of the Twelve Tables was such a fundamental document in the history of Rome; I don't think it should be an invention with a puny road bonus. What about having a national decision called Enact the law of the Twelve Tables, that enabled an invention called Road-building duty?

Sarayakat, your new ideas sound much more invention-like. Thanks! :)
 
Title: Oblique Order Tactics
Effect: Heavy infantry discipline bonus, maybe enable combat event (I don't know if these are moddable)
Desc.: First used by the Thebans in Leuctra. The commander strenghtens one flank to break through the enemy lines there, while the other, weak, flank just tries to hold the line.
Date: 371 BC in Leuctra
Nations: First in Greece, later applied by many others.

Title: Improved Skirmishers
Description: Commanders discover the use of supporting light infantry for their heavy forces when equipped with javelins and shields.
Effect: Light Infantry much more expensive, but also much better.
Date: 500 BC
Nations: Thrace, later everywhere.

Title: Falx and Rhomphaia
Description: Two handed weapon with a long, curved blade that allows devastating blows that cut through armour.
Effect: Heavy infantry better offense, although weaker defense (lack of shields). The advatage should outweight the disadvantages.
Date: Around 400BC.
Nations: Thrace, Dacia

And the last of mine, strange that no one mentioned it:
Title: Sarissa
Description: Very long pikes for a dense phalanx formation. One of the key advantages of the Macedonian conquests.
Effect: Massive heavy infantry boost.
Date: Around 350BC
Nation: Macedonia first, later everywhere in the Greek world.
 
To Descartes: A note on technology

One universal I have noticed while researching is the real lack of military invention during this period. I don't know how it might fit into your vision for technological advancement, but consider the following: Rome made good use of the various designs we tend to call gladii (even though that simply means swords in latin), but those designs and presumably tactics to match, had long been in use amongst various celtic derived peoples. The polyremes in their incarnations dated back to the phoenicians. Some of the more familiar seige weapons can be traced back as far as the greek sacking of Troy! If I had to generalize I would say that the celts begin with the galea (roman name for borrowed helmet design) the gladius and possibly lorica hamata, the carthaginians begin with most of the naval types/techs, the greeks, seleukid and otherwise begin with basic spear, cavalry equipage and most of the seige weapons, and the romans begin with a willingness to spend as many roman lives as it takes to win a war! Where invention did take place in the roman sphere there doesn't seem to have been much borrowing by their neighbors as by that time (late republic/early imperial), roman arms outraced technological seepage. As I said I don't know how this information fits in with your vision for things but the pattern of roman borrowing in all aspects except possibly tactics is so striking I felt it should be highlighted given the context of this thread. My thought is that if each of the major cultural groups were to begin with near mastery in a particular tech area, with the roman mastery laying primarily in discipline and training, invention could proceed from that point to simulate borrowing. By this stratagem some of the roman invincibility could be blunted and channeled as they would have to deal with their neighbors as their abilities matured i.e. the carthaginians only once they could develop their naval abilities, the cities of the east after learning seige warfare and cavalry tactics, and the barbarians of the north after modernizing infantry equipage. Obviously, any of these deficits could be overcome by sheer force of numbers, but this would neatly model history by forcing the roman player to bleed Italy of manpower in order to win wars against otherwise superior forces.
In the meantime I will continue keeping an eye out for tech stuff.
 
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To Descartes: A note on technology

One universal I have noticed while researching is the real lack of military invention during this period. I don't know how it might fit into your vision for technological advancement, but consider the following: Rome made good use of the various designs we tend to call gladii (even though that simply means swords in latin), but those designs and presumably tactics to match, had long been in use amongst various celtic derived peoples. The polyremes in their incarnations dated back to the phoenicians. Some of the more familiar seige weapons can be traced back as far as the greek sacking of Troy! If I had to generalize I would say that the celts begin with the galea (roman name for borrowed helmet design) the gladius and possibly lorica hamata, the carthaginians begin with most of the naval types/techs, the greeks, seleukid and otherwise begin with basic spear, cavalry equipage and most of the seige weapons, and the romans begin with a willingness to spend as many roman lives as it takes to win a war! Where invention did take place in the roman sphere there doesn't seem to have been much borrowing by their neighbors as by that time (late republic/early imperial), roman arms outraced technological seepage. As I said I don't know how this information fits in with your vision for things but the pattern of roman borrowing in all aspects except possibly tactics is so striking I felt it should be highlighted given the context of this thread. My thought is that if each of the major cultural groups were to begin with near mastery in a particular tech area, with the roman mastery laying primarily in discipline and training, invention could proceed from that point to simulate borrowing. By this stratagem some of the roman invincibility could be blunted and channeled as they would have to deal with their neighbors as their abilities matured i.e. the carthaginians only once they could develop their naval abilities, the cities of the east after learning seige warfare and cavalry tactics, and the barbarians of the north after modernizing infantry equipage. Obviously, any of these deficits could be overcome by sheer force of numbers, but this would neatly model history by forcing the roman player to bleed Italy of manpower in order to win wars against otherwise superior forces.
In the meantime I will continue keeping an eye out for tech stuff.

Can't say I agree with you in this approach.
Granted the throw men at it is somewhat acceptable during the Punic Wars. (and mostly the 2nd at that due to circumstances) The other realms were not 'superior' at all. By the time the Hellenistic world was attacked, the Roman Legions were already superior. And in the First Punic War Carthage was superior navy-wise but inferior landmight wise. In the 2nd Punic War Rome still had better troops in theory but thanks to Hannibal and his veterans the balance shifted. But that had more to do with the superiority of a general and gathered experience than with superior tech compared to Rome.

I'd advocae techs that are region orientated more. Let the Greeks/Hellenist world go their own route for instance. Sparta and co having a traditional warfare method and possibly an option to pick up more Hellenistic warfare ways. While nations like the Seleucids etc have a more Macedonian/Combined Arms approach. And they have their own techs/developments.
Rome should have their own flavored techs. Focussing on balance/heavy infantry/discipline. While some nations will go for tribal advantages. Or in the case of Parthia, cavalry archer specializations. Carthage for instance would start out with some sort of tech or the likes giving it mastery fleetwise and perhaps some sort of way to simulate their reliance on mercenaries. (but with advantages tied to it)
Some techs can be pseudo universal of course but i'd try to make them all distinct but without an intention of balancing things out just to make Rome 'challenged' for the sake of it. It would be ahistorical.
 
Can't say I agree with you in this approach.
Granted the throw men at it is somewhat acceptable during the Punic Wars. (and mostly the 2nd at that due to circumstances) The other realms were not 'superior' at all. By the time the Hellenistic world was attacked, the Roman Legions were already superior. And in the First Punic War Carthage was superior navy-wise but inferior landmight wise. In the 2nd Punic War Rome still had better troops in theory but thanks to Hannibal and his veterans the balance shifted. But that had more to do with the superiority of a general and gathered experience than with superior tech compared to Rome.

I'd advocae techs that are region orientated more. Let the Greeks/Hellenist world go their own route for instance. Sparta and co having a traditional warfare method and possibly an option to pick up more Hellenistic warfare ways. While nations like the Seleucids etc have a more Macedonian/Combined Arms approach. And they have their own techs/developments.
Rome should have their own flavored techs. Focussing on balance/heavy infantry/discipline. While some nations will go for tribal advantages. Or in the case of Parthia, cavalry archer specializations. Carthage for instance would start out with some sort of tech or the likes giving it mastery fleetwise and perhaps some sort of way to simulate their reliance on mercenaries. (but with advantages tied to it)
Some techs can be pseudo universal of course but i'd try to make them all distinct but without an intention of balancing things out just to make Rome 'challenged' for the sake of it. It would be ahistorical.

Damn, I had all sorts of cool points to make wherein I cited lots of historical facts (insofar as they exist), figures, and whatnot. Then I hit the back button, got confused, forwarded, etc. Long story short, you win the debate because I don't have the energy to type all that up again! :) I do disagree though so let me try to summarize a little so as not to leave the field completely unfought.
When Roman first fought greek they did so on a fairly even plane, Rome winning usually by taking awful casualties and making good use of politics. By the time Rome entered Hellas with intent they had learned their lessons well and were ready to fight the greeks from a position of superiority (political and tactical).
Gallic tribes sacked Rome with whom war continued on and off for centuries. When Caeser revenged the romans upon their old nemesi he did so with an army who had meanwhile adopted Gallic helmets, swords, and mail (styled after greek models but utilizing mail whose make probably came from gaul).
When Rome faced Carthage the achieved a measure of parity at sea by reverse engineering carthaginian ships and seeking assistance from the Massillian navy. I agree that Rome was the equal or superior of Carthage's mercenaries but then that is not at issue here.
In the final analysis this is all academic since IIRC Descartes' mod is using an approach similar to what you advocate anyway, but I do think it should be kept in mind that most of what we think of as "Roman" tech during the republican period was being used by their various neighbors centuries previous to their use by Rome.
Debating makes me hungry and I just made a cake from scratch with homemade lemon-sauce so I'm going to go eat some now...:)
 
Some machines...

Title: battering ram
Effect: siege bonus
Desc. This earliest siege weapon allows a frontal assault on weakpoints of walls and city gates.

From 1000 BC

Title: siege Ladders
Effect: siege bonus
Desc. Field-made ladders used to climb city walls allowing an attacker to bypass gate defenses.

From 900 BC

Title: tortoise
Effect: Siege Bonus
Desc. Simple protective frame which allows an attacker to approach city walls protected from enemy archers and light crushing attacks.

From: 800 BC

Title: siege towers
Effect: siege bonus
Desc. Siege towers help negate defensive advantages enjoyed by defenders atop walls.

From 600 BC

Title: gastraphetes
Effect: attack bonus
Desc. An early ballistic siege weapon allowing an invader to mount a standoff attack on enemy infantry.

From 500 BC

Title: catapult
Effect: Siege bonus
Desc. Siege engine capable of hurling large stones at enemy fortifications, but probably not accurate enough for use against infantry formations.

From 400 BC

Title: ballista
Effect: attack bonus
Desc. Catapult type weapon designed to propel a large spear with great force from well outside archery range.

From 300 BC

Title: onager
Effect: siege bonus/attack bonus
Desc. This powerful and accurate siege weapon can be used to attack enemy fortifications and in some cases enemy formations.

From 200 BC



Obviously those dates are extremely approximate but as far as I can determine (googling) the inventions are in the correct order and not too far away from their first recorded uses.
 
more stuff - greek oriented

Title: Phalanx
Effect: Heavy infantry offense bonus
Desc. An improvement on the warband that utilized a combination of strict formation and standardized equipment to maximize both offensive and defensive power.

From 2500 BC

Title: Hoplite phalanx
Effect: Heavy infantry Defense bonus
Desc. Training and equipment designed around a plan of interlocking shields and overlapping spears allow several ranks of men to fight at once.

From 700 BC

Title: Cretan Archers
Effect: Light Infantry Defense bonus
Desc. Well trained light troops whose use of the bow allows them to fight from behind the main line of battle.

From 600 BC

Title: Peltast
Effect: Light Infantry Offense bonus
Desc. Javelin armed light infantry used to harass and break up enemy formations.

From 500 BC

Title: Macedonian Phalanx
Effect: Heavy Infantry Offense/Defense bonus
Desc. Deepened ranks carry long counter-weighted spears creating a formation whose only vulnerabilities are it's flanks if deployed on proper ground.

From 350 BC

Title: Macedonian Cavalry
Effect: Cavalry Offense bonus
Desc. Cavalry armed and trained to work in concert with the infantry as the hammer to an anvil.

From 350 BC

As always these dates are ballpark but fairly accurate as to the order in which they appeared in history.
 
Damn, I had all sorts of cool points to make wherein I cited lots of historical facts (insofar as they exist), figures, and whatnot. Then I hit the back button, got confused, forwarded, etc. Long story short, you win the debate because I don't have the energy to type all that up again! :) I do disagree though so let me try to summarize a little so as not to leave the field completely unfought.
When Roman first fought greek they did so on a fairly even plane, Rome winning usually by taking awful casualties and making good use of politics. By the time Rome entered Hellas with intent they had learned their lessons well and were ready to fight the greeks from a position of superiority (political and tactical).
Gallic tribes sacked Rome with whom war continued on and off for centuries. When Caeser revenged the romans upon their old nemesi he did so with an army who had meanwhile adopted Gallic helmets, swords, and mail (styled after greek models but utilizing mail whose make probably came from gaul).
When Rome faced Carthage the achieved a measure of parity at sea by reverse engineering carthaginian ships and seeking assistance from the Massillian navy. I agree that Rome was the equal or superior of Carthage's mercenaries but then that is not at issue here.
In the final analysis this is all academic since IIRC Descartes' mod is using an approach similar to what you advocate anyway, but I do think it should be kept in mind that most of what we think of as "Roman" tech during the republican period was being used by their various neighbors centuries previous to their use by Rome.
Debating makes me hungry and I just made a cake from scratch with homemade lemon-sauce so I'm going to go eat some now...:)

Yes and they took over the Spanish sword etc etc.
I am quite aware of that my friend and those are certainly valid points. But those are minor elements in those times themselves which accumulated over time. If you put Caesar's Roman Legion during his day and age versus a Gallic force of similar numbers, i'm betting on the Legion. They kept improving and finetuning their equipment, methods etc. And they did indeed pick up tech and better weapons as they went but overall at a lot of periods they were already better than their enemies. They just improved further after or during annexation.
Also your theory gives the Romans a little bit too little credit when it comes to improving or changing things themselves. Like you said yourself during the 1st Punic War it's they who invented a new approach to naval combat that was an extension of their own inherent strengths.
But it is indeed less clearcut than either stance. The problem is that the game is at such a supralevel it is hard to sensibly take it all into account.
It is all very abstract. Early Republic was indeed very alike to the competition even in their post Greek Phase. But certainly from Marius and arguably before the changes were drastically moving away from the other nations.
Ironically you in turn have others emulating the Roman Legions.
But it's a game and it's more orderly, logical and doable to follow the unique 'techtree' line with some tech being common between the regions.
 
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Title: Military Settlements
Date: approx. 300BC (Hellenistic era)
Effect: Global -1 RR, faster cultural conversion and extra manpower, but lower tax income.
Desc: The settlement of military veterans in newly-conquered territories can help keep order and make recruitment easier.
Example: Roman coloniae, Diadochoi klerouchoi
 
But it is indeed less clearcut than either stance. The problem is that the game is at such a supralevel it is hard to sensibly take it all into account.


I feel like were getting pretty OT (and I started it, sorry Descartes) so let me just say I totally agree with this sentiment. My concern is that it just feels wrong to have Rome "discover" the tech Gladius Hispaniensis when their poor, ignorant, one province neighbors to the west do not have it. It sounds like you get that and I think you sum up the meta of it nicely. I suppose we'll just have to wait and see what Descartes does with it, and your reminder is well taken that a certain degree of abstraction is simply unavoidable as that is how I take your meaning. Anyway, those concerns are why I offer up more doctrine oriented techs and less in the way of specifics. The Celt may have designed the blade, but the Roman figured out how to conquer the world with it!


edit: and I just read UP the thread and realized you already covered the Phalanx, Darthvegeta800, my bad.
 
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Don't worry about OT, your posts have been very interesting so far. ;)
In my opinion, culture-specific inventions should be discovered first by countries with the specific culture, and then slowly spread among their neighbours. The trigger for the invention of Gladius could look something like this:

Code:
	trigger = {	
		or = {
			and = {
				land_tech = 20
				culture = iberian
			}
			and = {
				land_tech = 15
				culture = iberian
				any_neighbour = {
					invention = gladius_hispaniensis
				}
			}
			and = {
				land_tech = 30
				not = { culture = iberian }
			}
			and = {
				land_tech = 25
				not = { culture = iberian }
				any_neighbour = {
					invention = gladius_hispaniensis
				}
			}
		}
	}