Jizya Tax!

[magnusvejby]

In my recent Tunis game i had the decision to introduce Jizya, it currently only give a +5% national tax modifier and -15 piety.

Potential Requirements

• Does not have the ruler modifier "Jizya"
• Is in the Muslim religion group
• Any owned province:
  • Does not follow the religion of its owner
• Allow
  • Ruler's administrative skill is at least 3
  • Is not in regency
  Effects
  • Adds the ruler modifier "Jizya" until the ruler's death:
    • +5% national tax modifier
  • Changes piety by -15
  Its all coyped from wika

Why is it not a provincial modifier it makes no sense that all of your nation gets 5% more tax instead of the province, imagine that you only have a 1 basetax province that not follows your religion, and you have 9999999 total base tax then you get 5% of 10000000 basetax instead of maybe 20% more of 1. And as a side note this is in CK2 so why not in EU4?

 

[puppet333]

It's an abstraction, even if your nation is completely muslim it might still have enclaves of non-muslims. I think Jizya was also levied on foriegn merchants?

 

[Denkt]

In Crusader Kings II Jizya is only levied on provinces that is not considered following your faith.

 

[magnusvejby]

In Crusader Kings II Jizya is only levied on provinces that is not considered following your faith.

I know, was that unclear? That was what i wrote i think. Im sorry if it was unclear.

 

[Danfish77]

I think it would make sense to keep some kind of base multiplier, decreased to maybe 1% or so, to simulate the minority populations in your Muslim provinces, and have a provincial bonus in non-Muslim provinces you own, closer to 5%, possibly with a minor increase in unrest. It should work both ways.

 

[Maq]

Until quite recently (20th century), there were significant non-Muslim minorities within the Muslim world almost everywhere. Rather surprisingly, even in Mecca the Arabs formed only minority, and among non-Arabs many were non-Muslims. Iran, Levanta, Egypt, Morocco, infidels were more or less tolerated everywhere. On the other hand, they have paid extra tax, i.e. jizya, but were exempt from military obligations. So the tax increase should be tied with manpower decrease.

 

[Grand Historian]

It's probably to represent the fact that Provinces, despite having only one culture and religion in game, still have minorities (which need to be better represented). What does confuse me about Jizya, though, is that it decreases piety instead of increasing it.

 

[Mattius]

I don't like abstractions. But this one doesn't seem too bad.

 

[magnusvejby]

Well from reading the comments, i would say maybe a +3% national tax income to represent the non Muslim minorities, and a +5-15% provincial tax income to non Muslim provinces, and maybe it should not give negative piety.

 

[Maq]

Well from reading the comments, i would say maybe a +3% national tax income to represent the non Muslim minorities, and a +5-15% provincial tax income to non Muslim provinces, and maybe it should not give negative piety.

Negative piety connected to jizya is hardly logical.

 

[InFerroVeritas]

Negative piety connected to jizya is hardly logical.

This is true.

Piety represents adherence to the Muslim faith. Note how respecting Ramadan gives +piety and ignoring it gives -piety? That's because Ramadan is a central pillar of Islam. And jizya, while it's not a central pillar of Islam, is very much mentioned in the Quran. The Quran basically says that if non-Muslim people pay the jizya, they are entitled to the state's protection. If they don't, they're basically on their own. Forcing non-Muslims to pay the jizya is perfectly in line with Islamic law. Having it give -piety doesn't make terribly much sense.

I will say, however, that the Quran isn't clear on what jizya is. The Quran's very clear that the zakat is coin, but it doesn't specify that for jizya. This is probably what led to the Ottomans implementing the devsirme system instead of a conventional jizya tax. The devsirme was, in some respects, a jizya -- it was just paid in slaves and it was frequently involuntary.

 

[Maq]

This is true.

Piety represents adherence to the Muslim faith. Note how respecting Ramadan gives +piety and ignoring it gives -piety? That's because Ramadan is a central pillar of Islam. And jizya, while it's not a central pillar of Islam, is very much mentioned in the Quran. The Quran basically says that if non-Muslim people pay the jizya, they are entitled to the state's protection. If they don't, they're basically on their own. Forcing non-Muslims to pay the jizya is perfectly in line with Islamic law. Having it give -piety doesn't make terribly much sense.

I will say, however, that the Quran isn't clear on what jizya is. The Quran's very clear that the zakat is coin, but it doesn't specify that for jizya. This is probably what led to the Ottomans implementing the devsirme system instead of a conventional jizya tax. The devsirme was, in some respects, a jizya -- it was just paid in slaves and it was frequently involuntary.

I did not know that devshirme has ever been interpreted as a form of jizya. Interesting...

 

[InFerroVeritas]

I did not know that devshirme has ever been interpreted as a form of jizya. Interesting...

It's not exactly a spectacularly mainstream opinion (and I say that like there's somehow a mainstream opinion on Ottoman history that isn't hilariously Eurocentric), but it appears that devsirme was levied in lieu of a jizya. And, in return for the devsirme, the Ottomans provided significant protections to their non-Christian subjects (including a complete indifference to their religion). It probably wasn't motivated by religion, but it certainly seems likely that religious elements were used to justify it after the fact.

 

[Sarmatian]

I think it would make sense to keep some kind of base multiplier, decreased to maybe 1% or so, to simulate the minority populations in your Muslim provinces, and have a provincial bonus in non-Muslim provinces you own, closer to 5%, possibly with a minor increase in unrest. It should work both ways.

But then it should work even if you have no non-Muslim provinces.

 

[Danfish77]

But then it should work even if you have no non-Muslim provinces.

That would be the entire point. There were non-muslims in Muslim-majority provinces, having both a province and overall bonus reflects that.