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Mauer

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It's funny, I never see muslims grow that much, except in Anatolia, and most of my games Jerusalem is created by crusaders. They did grow as far as taking half of France once though, but that only happened one or two times and I thought it was a great change of pace.
 

Graaf

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Well, if we were to take Crusader Kings as a composite of two nouns (that is, to assume Crusader here is a noun), then the proper title for the Muslim based title would be Mujaheddin Sultans II. Again, though, if we were to use the modern translation of King in Arabic, which may not be appropriate, we get Mujaheddin Maliks II.

Between the two, Mujaheddin Sultans II sounds better.

Hahaha, great reply, I love that the are a big number of Sheldons with a history degree on here. :)
 

MartinSWE

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As I do in every 'Muslims are OP' thread I say: Play for more than 100 years and watch them crumble to dust. In 1066 muslims are superior due to huge tech advantage and better developed holdings. The same can be said about the Byzantines compared to any Catholic Ruler. Every single time I play Iberia initially becomes muslim and later is devided between HRE, France and possibly England. Italy is the only area where muslims seem to thrive for a bit longer before the said catholic powerhouses mauls them.

Also if you play as one of the stronger catholic kingdoms (the three mentioned) you can most of the time tip the balance in the Crusade for Jerusalem and claim it for your own glory. In my latest France (Capet) game I joined the first Crusade not hoping for much but found out that the Fatamids where not powerful enough to hold the 30.000 something Crusaders back (this was without the aid of the HRE and no knightly orders had been formed). Before the Crusade the Caliph had crushed the Kingdom of Sicily via Invasion so perhaps that had something to do with it.

Might add that I think the stability of France seems to be important to wheather the Muslims grow 'to big' or not. If Aquitane rebels against the French King the Muslims in Spain/Northern Africa loves to Holy War them and this decapitates France.
 

unmerged(149861)

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The game seems a coin toss. I've had Seljuiks fight a thirty year civil war and stomp a crusade during it, while splintered Fatimids have tanked through a ten-thousand man Papal Army in Cairo...
 

unmerged(527492)

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Having played several games, here's what I find:

1. Fatimids are the ony consistently powerful Muslim state, and a lot of their power comes at the expense of other Muslims, particularly Sunnis in Syria and Mesopotamia. Egypt should be made much less powerful.

2. Eventually, the Muslims get beaten back, and really never recover. I regularly see the HRE and France rofl stomping Spain, Africa, and the Middle East.

3. The Ilkhanate seems stronger than it used to be. I've seen them totally wipe out Islam in the East in my last few games (until they convert).

4. Seriously, by late game I regularly see Islam wiped out, and this is without too much intervention on my part.
 

Kanin_Usagi

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I'm thinking its less that Muslims are overpowered and more that Holy War is a bit broken. 80% of my games tend to end up with one religion dominating the other. Is this just me?
You mean like in real life?

No, I'm being serious. Which religion has more followers in extremely powerful, wealthy, and large nations? Islam or Christianity? That's what I thought. =P One religion will always be more powerful than the others. By the end of the Middle Ages, I'd honestly say it was Islam, because of the Ottomans and the various Mongol nations who converted.
 

PerciXal

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You mean like in real life?

No, I'm being serious. Which religion has more followers in extremely powerful, wealthy, and large nations? Islam or Christianity? That's what I thought. =P One religion will always be more powerful than the others. By the end of the Middle Ages, I'd honestly say it was Islam, because of the Ottomans and the various Mongol nations who converted.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/rel_chr_num_of_chr-religion-christianity-number-of-christians
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/rel_isl_num_of_mus-religion-islam-number-of-muslim

I read a few more sources and even read that christianity is starting to lose ground in western countries. Though I'm not sure if this can be trusted since it got its source for Islamic pops from wikipedia.

EDIT: Btw the Islam link has more country stats so it's a bit unbalanced.
 
Last edited:

SRM

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I've seen Crusades succeed every now and then - even without my intervention - if the Muslims get distracted by something. The most beautiful occasion yet was when the Fatimids were trying to invade a (unified) Abyssinia, got smacked with a Crusade for Jerusalem, and lost both wars. I then followed up by snatching Alexandria away and the Fatimids never recovered.
 

Kyoumen

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I have yet to see a single game where Muslims keep Sicily, Andalusia or Northern Africa unless I'm playing one in that area myself. Historically by 1453 the Muslims had won back nearly all the land taken in the crusades (leaving only Cyprus and Rhodes as holdouts), completely destroyed the Byzantines, held North Africa, and still had a small holding in Iberia. I doubt anybody has ever seen the AI Muslims do so well. They don't have anywhere near their historical resilience, and if anything, need a significant buff.
 

Dreamshifter

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I have yet to see a single game where Muslims keep Sicily, Andalusia or Northern Africa unless I'm playing one in that area myself. Historically by 1453 the Muslims had won back nearly all the land taken in the crusades (leaving only Cyprus and Rhodes as holdouts), completely destroyed the Byzantines, held North Africa, and still had a small holding in Iberia. I doubt anybody has ever seen the AI Muslims do so well. They don't have anywhere near their historical resilience, and if anything, need a significant buff.

I think that's half the equation there. Right now, the Muslims start off strong (especially the Fatimids), but fade as the game goes on. Personally, I'd rather seem them normalized, weaker at the start, but stronger in the end. That, and something done about the Fatimids. Even if it was a one-off event, the fact that I've seen them launch a successful invasion of Germany is... disturbing.
 

Lord Finnish

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It's a shame how OP muslims are. The weakness of Crusades are one thing that particularly hurts the game.
 

Sinroth

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You mean like in real life?

No, I'm being serious. Which religion has more followers in extremely powerful, wealthy, and large nations? Islam or Christianity? That's what I thought. =P One religion will always be more powerful than the others. By the end of the Middle Ages, I'd honestly say it was Islam, because of the Ottomans and the various Mongol nations who converted.

I mean by the end of the game Christianity is basically confined to northern Germany, or Islam is nearly non-existent. And these are consistent outcomes.
 

_krampe_

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I mean by the end of the game Christianity is basically confined to northern Germany, or Islam is nearly non-existent. And these are consistent outcomes.

Mostly depends on how/if the hordes convert :p
 

jonnydesperado

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I don't feel like Crusades are too weak generally - it just depends on who joins. I remember one Crusade where the Christians struggled to conquer Jerusalem for a few years and just before they got beaten completely, the HRE dropped the hammer, killed everyone, and conquered Jerusalem, just like that. The reasons for the Fatimids seeming so overpowered is mainly the Mamluks (although both the Seljuks and the ERE have similar units, the Varangians being weaker for lack of horse archers), that the Seljuks usually punch the ERE to the ground and the Fatimids can kick it while down; and overall, that the Christians usually do all kinds of bull to each other, while the Muslims don't: they have ample opportunity to declare Holy Wars on the Christians next door, instead of forging claims and declaring war on your liege or trying to conquer the Baltics for one hundred years.
 

Nyrael

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As I do in every 'Muslims are OP' thread I say: Play for more than 100 years and watch them crumble to dust.

This. As successful as Muslims are in first half, the decadence, constant infightings and Christian speedy rise in military power tips the balance to the other side in most cases.
 

Daelix

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The Muslims are ridiculously powerful and indeed give the impression of spawning troops out of thin air, nobody really knows from where until they make contact or threaten it. More than with anybody else, you need to watch wars closely or indeed, a huge stack will land atop of your sieging force like a rabbit out of a hat. But they have tech bonuses and all, so I don't think they're cheating in the sense of actually spawning units. But their re-raise rate used to be such that fighting them seemed pointless because they would seem to be always around the same army size regardless of defeats. That was in 1.04.

Historically, if you lived in those centuries, you would probably indeed see the Muslims as a megablob spawning troops all over the map and being so darn hard to stop. Eastern Roman Empire tried to contain them single-handedly but gave, and at Manzikert it got its backbone broken due to treason in the ranks. Never really recovered. Crusaders didn't do much overall, maybe other that providing the Muslims with something to focus their attention on instead of uniting and being on the offensive. Only the end of 17th century saw them pacified.

Yeah, historically the entire military might of Christendom coming to bear managed to carve out the kingdom of Jerusalem a couple of times, and they couldn't manage to hold it. Not to mention the Ottoman Turks were knocking on the gates of Vienna in 1683 and could have as easily won as lost, which could have led to a very, very different globe today, so the Islamic blobbing throughout Africa, the Middle East, and even up towards the HRE isn't really inaccurate. Just unfortunate in game terms unless you as the player grow REALLY big.
 

Portal

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http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/rel_chr_num_of_chr-religion-christianity-number-of-christians
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/rel_isl_num_of_mus-religion-islam-number-of-muslim

I read a few more sources and even read that christianity is starting to lose ground in western countries. Though I'm not sure if this can be trusted since it got its source for Islamic pops from wikipedia.

EDIT: Btw the Islam link has more country stats so it's a bit unbalanced.

Christianity's rise has more to do with exploration and missionary work than with crusading.

Also, Christianity losing does not imply Islam winning. No Religion is the fastest growing 'religion' there is.
 

Gagik

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I think all those 4 "empires" should be nerfed equally - it would balance and differ the game. Im talking about HRE, ERE, FAtimids, Seljuks - they are simply too strong, too stable, too many CBS, too high CA, too much focused on small fries rather than waging wars against each other as it should be (especialy Seljucks vs Fatimids vs Byzantinies). Also, to give especially Sunni islam countries some future I think both mongol invasions should be nerfed by 25 - 50 % - In generall all East is kicked out of the game after begining of 13 century - imo its a bit too much. I dont understand why you cant join other country of ur religion against some muslim invasion - why? This is the thing that makes it soo OP, not the 500 piety cost. Its simply a duel = muslim empire vs a lonelly small duke/kingdom and the result is not surprising.
 

unmerged(228153)

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It's not strictly the Muslims who are too strong, it's

a) the ridiculous duchy-level Holy War that can be spammed for 50 piety, as if every lowly Emir in history had the religious or worldly authority to instigate such a war - or the intention to conquer all his neighbours;

b) the Fatimids being far too stable at the beginning of the game, as has been said on these boards over and over again, for good reason;

c) after a failed Crusade, the dynastic decadence of the Crusade target dropping to a solid zero;

d) the Holy Roman Empire, or France, or the Fatimids, or every huge and (historically) quite disorganized nation being able to raise large levies for the conquest of Tunis, and ship them to North Africa without any problems, and also being able to defend their fancy new overseas possessions with 10000 troops afterwards;

e) the Normans in Naples and Sicily being much too weak initially.


Iberia is tricky - sometimes it's a fun brawl, sometimes it's Muslims all over the place in 1130, only to be beaten back by France and the Empire; more rarely it's Christians finishing the Reconquista in a few decades. The Taifas should be weaker, but the Almoravids stronger (and more inclined to grab land in Iberia). Also, I have never seen Portugal form on its own, mostly because the duke of Portucale never goes for Independence when he revolts (and boy does he revolt often!).
 

Atridij

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Never seen Muslim blobs in my games, North Africa is in Christian hands for most of my games and only place in Europe Muslims exist outside Volga Bulgaria is Granada and few other south Iberian provinces.