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Comes Imperii

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Well, it's not bad, but I think it's not great either. I mean, you need exploration and expansion as your first two idea groups and expansion gives you similar diplo buffs as Diplomatic.
Don't know, but I think you may need more military ideas to win wars, and more importantly to win them fast.
 

Jam94banjo

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So we aggree that the top idea tier for Jihad would be in that order:


Diplomatic > Expansion > Administrative > ????

I would still argue fiercely for Diplomatic > Exploration > Defensive > Expansion > Admin. It might be worth swapping Defensive and Expansion if you get a very nice Diplomatic leader.

Stepping away from the idea route for a minute though, it seems it is important to secure the Arabian Peninsula whilst at the same time trying to grab at least 1 Persian province from QQ and Iraq hopefully too. By 1510, 1520 at the latest you need to be in a position to have 1444 start Sibir and be able to block off Muscovy/Russia from colonosing. Whilst you are cutting through Nogai/Uzbek you also need to be fighting the Africans and hopefully you can cut through and start to colonise the Cape thus slowing Portugal/Castile to enable you to grab for Indian Ocean/Pacific Ocean islands.
 

Qoff

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Tecnically military ideas isn't very usefull if you have a strong economy because you'll fight with countries with lower tech than you since you can easilly westernize from Genoa.

And about the Administrative ideas i think honestly that should be the 3th or 4th because of the core reduction bonus.
 

Jam94banjo

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Tecnically military ideas isn't very usefull if you have a strong economy because you'll fight with countries with lower tech than you since you can easily westernize from Genoa.

And about the Administrative ideas i think honestly that should be the 3th or 4th because of the core reduction bonus.

Defensive is required in my opinion for the morale bonus (especially useful for if somebody big declares war on you before you westernise and the -25% attrition is fantastic all game. Whether you are doing a deep conquest of Ming, attacking the hordes in winter or just fighting in general. It is in my opinion the only military idea required.
 

Qoff

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Defensive is required in my opinion for the morale bonus (especially useful for if somebody big declares war on you before you westernise and the -25% attrition is fantastic all game. Whether you are doing a deep conquest of Ming, attacking the hordes in winter or just fighting in general. It is in my opinion the only military idea required.


Yes, in my try i had defensive, is the best military idea IMO, but grab it as one of the first ideas isn't good IMO, i think that should be the 5th idea.
 

Golladan

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But the stability bonus of diplomatic seems to be a must, break up royal tiles without lose stability is f* awesome *-*
How many people are you marrying that you will then attack? The Mamluks, the Ottomans, and...?

If you go Haasa -> Oman -> Yemen -> Hedjaz -> QQ etc etc.

When you fight Yemen to make them your vassal, take Aden from them and core it. This will allow you to fabricate claim on Adal. Adal and Hedjaz usually ally. So when you're going to vassalize Hedjaz, declare on Adal instead, who will call Hedjaz. You can then annex Adal and vassalize Hedjaz all in one war. You now have access to 1 province you can colonize as soon as you get your first colonist. You'll also likely get a mission to save your brethren from Messawa (Ethiopia) and if you're lucky they will have no more ties with the Mamluks. When you have a break between your QQ and Timurids wars take Messawa from Ethiopia (if the Mamluks won't be a problem) and now you have access to the 10 or so provinces where Funj spawns to colonize.

Most of that will happen before you get your first idea. So...

Expansion -> Exploration probably best for your first 2 ideas.

I'd take offensive for the military idea. The forced march helps a lot to get around with how big you'll be by the time you get it.
 
Last edited:

Qoff

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I think i'm playing this game wrong. I have more than 350 played hours and i cannot understand how do you guys expand so fast without a high level of overextension.
 

Orkonkel

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2014_02_02_00002.jpg


This thread had a lot of interesting information. To me, cutting down Ottomans early was always more important than dealing with Muscowy (they never really blobbed in the few games where I actually got off to a good start as Najd, got completely eaten up by Novgorod in this last game). Anyway, I always picked Offensive as my military tech simply because forced march lets me exhaust Ottoman manpower in scorched earth desert zones. In one game, I'd even managed to feed all of Byzantium/Bulgary as vassals from Ottomans, then things started going to hell anyway so didn't work out. This was definitely a helpful read.
 

SuperSFX

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Just to give you guys an idea of what kind of empire you are shooting for:

iriyaDA.jpg

This was 502 Provinces. This is a very difficult achievement. Sweden has a starting position comparable to Russia/Muscovy and this was done through basically pure conquest before protectorates were implemented. Granted, I didn't colonize at all, but there were times when I was simultaneously at war with 3 or 4 different people in order to expand in multiple directions at the same time. I think the winning strategy might be expand east ASAP while colonizing through exploration and expansion. Then, around 1700 you potentially could own all of Asia and then Westernize, take over Lithuania/Poland as well as the Ottomans.
 

Qoff

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Just to give you guys an idea of what kind of empire you are shooting for:

iriyaDA.jpg

This was 502 Provinces. This is a very difficult achievement. Sweden has a starting position comparable to Russia/Muscovy and this was done through basically pure conquest before protectorates were implemented. Granted, I didn't colonize at all, but there were times when I was simultaneously at war with 3 or 4 different people in order to expand in multiple directions at the same time. I think the winning strategy might be expand east ASAP while colonizing through exploration and expansion. Then, around 1700 you potentially could own all of Asia and then Westernize, take over Lithuania/Poland as well as the Ottomans.

I still think the best way to westernize as Najd is from Genoa, they have a province near Crimea.
 

frolix42

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I thought more about this and I'm really feel like this achievement should be done with a Westernized Najd. It's a dramatically ahistorical outcome which should be done by a Najd with the most advanced tech possible. You're going to reach a point late game where the Westerners or Eastern Tech Russia will be 3 or 4 Techs ahead of you and start exterminating your armies.
 

unmerged(131570)

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So the last 10 years in game time some good progress has been made. It is now 1641 and I'm now up to 213 provinces (including 5 colonies, 2 of which seized from Russia). My vassals and PUs I think give me another 87 provinces or so. So another 200 provinces to acquire in 180 years, which seems possible, but my other worry is that I need to starting integrating vassals faster because of the -30 penalty. It does reset after 20 years which is good, but still it means I need to integrate 2 vassals every 30 years, and... well, there are only 180 years left. Spreading Sunni is very fast, and with Defender of Faith that's 4 missionaries which is plenty. So my bottleneck is still OE.

Vassal + PU province count: Zhou 5, Xi 17 (Sunni), Shun 21 (Sunni), Persia 13, Nogai 14 (PU), Mewar 10, Morocco 1, Giowalior 2, Khrosan 2, Bengal 2, Ryazan 1. 11/8 Dip Relations. Bengal has another 5 or so cores, Khrosan also 5 or so, Ryazan who knows how many provinces they'll be willing to buy.

I think vassal feeding is still kind of viable. Milatarist rulers buy most things, I think even different culture (but perhaps only same culture group?). Admin and Diplo rulers don't like to buy anything. Balanced rulers, well, they are in between. So you need to be kind of lucky there.

OE at 164 right now. Siberia is pretty much done colonizing, maybe 2 empty incognito ones left, ones that Russia no longer has access to. Cape is at 955 inhabitants so I'll need to start expanding there, or maybe take Taiwan first. I don't have the explore idea, so I can't get to Oceania, whose 20 or so non-arid provinces would help a great deal. Yeah, Exploration is more important than I thought.

One thing I realized is that I think same culture group reduces coring time. So hopefully the 30 or Ottoman Turkish provinces shouldn't take too long to core (though still quite expensive). Unfortunately I think all the minor nation cores have expired. Coring time for someone else's provinces with claim and reduction is now pretty much at 10 years, probably will only get longer.

Turns out the war against Russia wasn't too difficult. They annoyingly are now protectorates of Oirat, Kazan and Golden Horde which are full of low-value provinces that I love. Earlier they actually invaded Crimea, which is a protectorate of Ottoman, and those two guys just cancelled out a slew of manpower. After that Russia was not difficult. Westernized units trump the Eastern units, especially when they take so much attrition. Their eastern Siberian provinces are so cheap war-score wise.

Next up: integrate Zhou and Mewar, DoW on Ottoman or Tunisia (to feed Morocco). DoW Timurids (30 regiments more than enough) for both provinces and Khorosan feeding, DoW Assam (or is it Shan) to feed Bengal. Great thing is that by now Xi does all the fighting for me when it's in Southeast Asia. Actually, I forgot to DoW vassalize Byzantium (released in a previous war), I was wondering if they'll buy lots of Greek provinces. But Ottoman took their Greek one and they're left with only Cyprus now.

So I think not cutting off Russia at Siberian chokepoints is a perfectly viable strategy. Much more work, but a lot more action :happy:
 

Dr. B

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Good read Lingyis!

Seems you are doing well.

Can you see any indication about how coring time from country size decreases with time? This would be interesting to know more about!
 

unmerged(131570)

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Also, I don't don't if it's a bug or if I just plain didn't see it, but you can't seem to annul proctecterates in peace treaties?

EDIT: argh, I think I just plain didn't look until annul treaties... that's annoying.
 

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I have got to say, the +1 siege from Defensive is just incredibly good! First time I noticed the power of a 5 siege leader + max artillery. Start off at 21% progress on a Level 2 Fort province. Wow. Took just 1 month to take this province! Now I think between Expansion, Defensive and Exploration, Expansion is the least useful of them. Can't believe I was even including Def in the debate. The +1 siege I guess on average shortens all wars by 15%? Only with a leader sieging of course. Still, quite possibly over ~400 years you save about 40 years, which seems very important for a Najd-like campaign. Might even be more important for a WC campaign.
 

grisamentum

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Don't +1 leader siege give all your sieges +1 (even if you didn't assign an actual leader)?

No, it means when you generate leaders they get an additional siege pip.

Lingyis, don't forget that for the achievement you don't actually need to core land. If it's like 1810 and you're a few dozen provinces away you can just take as many Ottoman provinces as necessary without coring.
 

Dr. B

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It decreases? It only keeps on increasing as far as I can tell. Right now I think it's like 119 months even for claimed provinces.

Oh it does, but noone seems to bother to remember.

Manual states that base coring time is 3 years.
Then it increases with 5% 4% for each non-overseas province. This quickly adds up to a long time. Max is 20 years.

Then we have this change in version 1.2:

"Size penalty on coring is now reduced by about 0,2% each year, down to basically 0 at 1800."
"Default core time modifier from size of country reduced by 20%."

So by 1800ish you should be back to a base of 3 years. Then ideas/modifiers also helps. Lets do a test.

I load up Russia in 1819. They are the sovereign largest nation in the world with over 160 provinces. I take a non-accepted culture/religion province from Poland and check the coring time. I also check coring time of some colonies in siberia.

Taken province: coring time 29 months. Russia has a 20% bonus from idea and government. That gives 36(3 years) x 0.8 = 29. Yay!
The colonies only takes 14 years (edit: months... ahem) to core.

To check the difference, I load russia in 1680, they have about 100 provinces. Now colonies take 35 months to core!, big difference even though later russia is much larger.


So... what is the point of this then? Well, I didnt bother to see if the numbers changed with later patches, but there seems to be faster core production as time goes by becaus size doesnt matter anymore, down to the base of 3 years. This helps a lot for Jihad achievement!
Jihaaaaaad!!!!!!