Jianzhou-> Manchu->Qing Need advice please

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Choksquaker

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Ok here is what i got so far:

667F096B08F2617A89098FDF3102251B613FAFFD


1) I chose colonization as my first idea as i thought i wouldnt be a good idea to spend military points on ideas right now, and i am only using diplo points for its useles tech ( at least now) and to annex vassals. As you can see i already colonized a northern province.

2) Qing and Oirat are my allies, but something is going wrong for me: see that pink dot inside Haixi? That's Korchin, now a Ming vassal! Korchin has a province which i need in order to form Manchu, rats!!!

3) Qing is doing really well, i didnt see them having problems with manpower nor rebels, how will i attack them? If by any chances i do attack them, should i annex or make them release vassals in order to save adm points?

4) Muscovy is blobbing like crazy, how will i protect from then later?

What mistakes have i made so far?
Any help is appreciated
 

Ikenos

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I assume both 'qing' are mistakes for Ming.

1) exploration early is fine. alaska has decent chances for gold, and fur isn't bad. one of the easiest ways to form manchu is wait until two tribes are fighting, jump in on one and occupy their capital, and vassalization will let you go to war with the other, now weakened power and probably vassalize them. the three of you should be able to eat the fourth no problem.

2) Taking out the ainu before the japanese is useful. gives you a nice land base if achieving naval superiority is hard. The two-three siberian tribes to your north are easy pickings, too. And you should be big enough to reduce korea.

3) yeah, they rebalanced ming to not have it collapse in flames in the first 30 years. Your strength is your superior cavalry, you can still squash ming, especially if you fight battle 1-2 in your own territory Try to steal a shun core, release as vassal and add its cores before integrating. after that and getting the manchu cores, you should be able to take out Ming easily. If/when some of the southern states split off, you might be able to diplovassalize them.

4) less easy...build a wall of colonies in siberia to forestall their march to the pacific, eat china, and vassalize a horde or two. Qing can out-russia russia pretty easily.
 

Kirikano

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Your starting move should be to ally Ming vassalize both Haixi and Yeren in your first wars with both of them, and taking one or two provinces at most from each. That way you won't find Ming or in this case a Ming vassal holding some key provinces, or Oirat doing so. Allying Ming prevents Korea from allying Ming then jumping you with Ming. I would take administrative ideas first as colonization is painfully slow at the start and if you want to vassal feed, you won't have the diplo points to tech up fast enough anyways. Trying to colony hop around Africa to get to Portugal and Spain is so incredibly slow with all the tropical provinces that its not really viable. And forming colonial nations in NA is bad because they will be Chinese tech, and easy pickings for the Europeans, and drag you into unnecessary wars.

After that, I would focus on taking out Korchin and Buryatia. Buryatia has a nice gold province which really helps with your income. If you have ADM focus and taken core cost reduction ideas, then you should have no problem coring everything and keep filling out administrative ideas. Your next targets should be Korea and Oirat. Drag Ming into a war with Oirat if possible and get both of them to tank their manpower, and then declare on Korea so Ming can't help Korea. After your first or second successful war against Oirat and Korea (making sure to vassalize Korea once you reduced them enough so that Japan or Ming can't take land from them or vassalize them), Ming will probably unally you as you are big enough to rival. At that point though, you should be big enough to crush Ming easily. With only 20% or so warscore, you can easily take over 100% OE of provinces.

I didn't do this because I restricted myself to coring provinces myself after this and also only taking provinces with claims, but you can eat Ming a lot faster if you take a Shun core and Zhou core, and one or two other unreleased nations in Ming, releasing them as vassals, then forcing Ming to return cores. So each war with Ming should go: take 100% or less OE of provinces with claims yourself, return as many cores as you can to your vassals. Second idea should either be humanist, or influence if your doing a lot of vassal feeding.

All the while, you should be making a beeline through Oirat and the other hordes toward Muscovy. If your lucky, Muscovy is collapsing already, or at least didn't take a coastal province in time to get Expansion first, or even second. If your unlucky, as I was, you have to try to get to the tip of Uzbek and seize their colony once they plop it down, which I did.




If you went the vassal feeding route, you can probably keep your army in the west and eat through Muscovy to get to Sweden or Crimea to Genoa, which would allow your to westernize fast.

Don't reform or form Manchu until its either past tech 15 or so and your military units are seriously starting to fall behind, or your ready to westernize. The horde benefits are too good to give up until you really have to. Ideally, you only want to form Manchu when you can form Qing as well immediately after, and have enough income and ADM banked to enact Forbidden City and Repair Great Wall decision.




My army composition early game was a stack of merc infantry that I used to soak up most of the damage by using them to seige and bait enemies onto them, with a regular pure cavalry stack close by to reinforce when attacked to to wipe out small stacks. Never had any manpower problems and a large stack (10+) cavalry early game will crush all your neighbors armies.
 

haltabush

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Regarding "exploding" Ming in many parts, I did it a bit differently, and I think it's faster this way.
The first war, Ming didn't have any rebel problem, the autonomy was still quite high, so I took my cores + Pekin.
Second war, I took a bunch of provinces to release Shun, no Zhou yet
Third, truth break, return cores to Shun (I also took a couple of provinces on the coast, because I had some spare admin points). At this point, if not before, Ming should have lost the Mandate of Heaven... they're screwed! Wait and watch all the peasans working for you.
I waited for the revolters to succeed, and then the autonomy of all Ming provinces became huge, allowing me to take more in one war.
Soooo.. Fourth war (I think), I took all of Zhou cores and released, finished Shun, took a couple of provinces for myself.
Of course I had a shitload of AE, but mostly toward Ming. Korea was already my vassal so at the end, being the only independant Confucian with Ming, I only had 4-5 countries in the coalition (Japan, Khmer, Dali and a couple others - not a threat at all)
 

Choksquaker

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D424C93C5D4DB17FD99EF5FFA94BF9B638AA2088


It is 1560 and its all i could do. Shun and XI are my vassals. Next time i dow Ming, i'll feed XI some more provinces and snatch some for myself.

As you can see, Russia is approaching.:eek:hmy:

1) Oirat loves me a lot and helped me beat Ming two times.

2) I have no navy AT ALL. Why should i? There is no useful trade nodes on the sea and i'm still receiving a meagre amount of ducats as income.

3) I have already had something like 5909432 negative stability events...... I only have a surplus of diplo points therefore i think spending monarch points with ideas right now is a big no no right?


Keep advising me!
 

Choksquaker

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D35899DB06E79134D3CC31B2396C7D5327CC79B5

Shun, Xi and Yi are my vassals. I'm currently annexing Shun.
Well, i'm the region powerhouse now.
Problem is:

1) I don't have no allies at all. Oirat hates my guts, Japan took a mission to kill me! Ming doest trust me to die properly, Korea the same.

2) Russia took a domineering position against me. They will attack me sooner or later. I try to keep the same mil. tech as them but even achieving level 15 tech i still didnt update my units. I'm also trying to stockpile ducats but i think they crush me no matter what i do. Offering myself as their protectorate is a good deal? Will i lose my vassals or i'll be unable to update to Qing?

3) It lacks a single province for me to get my beloved achievement, it now belongs to Oirat. I think i'll attack them ( i am 2 techs ahead) but they have a huuuge army. I'm afraid that Russia jumps on me righr after i dow Oirat.

Help me! What should i do?
 

fetusthebard

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Easy there. You can still win this. DOW on Oirat as long as they have fewer units then you, then take only the province you need from them. If Oirat is the target of a coalition, join that and then attack them. If they aren't the target, make one, maybe people will join. They seem to have eaten everything. Don't worry about Japan, they are pushovers. Not only that, they have to cross a sea. Try to improve relations with Russia if you can as well.
 

AurochsAway

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Shun, Xi and Yi are my vassals. I'm currently annexing Shun.
Well, i'm the region powerhouse now.
Problem is:

1) I don't have no allies at all. Oirat hates my guts, Japan took a mission to kill me! Ming doest trust me to die properly, Korea the same.

2) Russia took a domineering position against me. They will attack me sooner or later. I try to keep the same mil. tech as them but even achieving level 15 tech i still didnt update my units. I'm also trying to stockpile ducats but i think they crush me no matter what i do. Offering myself as their protectorate is a good deal? Will i lose my vassals or i'll be unable to update to Qing?

3) It lacks a single province for me to get my beloved achievement, it now belongs to Oirat. I think i'll attack them ( i am 2 techs ahead) but they have a huuuge army. I'm afraid that Russia jumps on me righr after i dow Oirat.

Help me! What should i do?

Becoming a protectorate will strip you of your vassals. You need to annex them first if you want to become a protectorate.
 

Choksquaker

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Vassal the nearby hordes and ally Oirat, who tends to rival Ming early. Bring them in on Ming and start taking land ASAP.


Oirat has already been my faithful ally. They were the ones who saved my arse against Ming 4 times. But as time went on, the "they want your provinces" modifier became too great and i was obliged to refuse a call to war (after using them as my pet army 4 times lol).

And by getting rid of them as allies i was hoping i would encourage Russia to jump on them. If they did, the achievement could have been already mine.

Moreover, i can feed my vassal Shun 4 more cores from Oirat before i fully annex them
 

KungDenzel

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This is what I did.

Wait until Haixi and Yeren fight each other, then go in on Haixi. Vassalise them, this will get you in a war with Yeren, usually Korchin has jumped Yeren at this point aswell. Get their capital asap so Korchin cant vassalise.

Vassalize Yeren when Korchin peaces out, dow Korchin for the cores they took from Yeren and give their lands to your vassals. Now if Buryatia is not allied to Oirat dow them aswell and annex(maybe do it anyway with vassals you should be able to beat Oriat, this is to be able to colony block Russia asap so they dont come over to you like they have there :p Then smash Ming and take a core from Shun, Xi and Zhou so you can release as vassal while annexing Haixi and Yeren.

Then take the provinces needed for Qing and go Manchu -> Qing immediatly while feeding Shun,Xi and Zhou. Dont ever care about AE, after Vassalising the other Jurchen tribes, the only threat to you is if Oriat joins the others in a coalition so ally them, soon thereafter there is no threat for the rest of the game. Westernise before annexing Shun, Xi and Zhou
 

Choksquaker

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B01A96ADB4E03E7DBCD0933C6638F8B03E901024


Thanks guys, ive made it in circa 1608. I'm between the 0,27% who got this achievement!

In this screenshot the year is 1660 as you can see and Russia still didnt attack me at all, guess it is all luck. Funny that i completely ignored the naval scope during this gameplay, all i have build are 4 transport ships for my mercs to protect my colonies around China

Oirat tried to sneak attack on me twice but i made them release Kham as punishment. Now, Kham is my vassal.

My only goal now is to eat all ming, vassalize and annex korea.