Jews in CK2

[unmerged(175146)]

You basically shouldn't even be talking about this because the only point of the discussion is Judaism in relation to the game, particularly in the 867 period. Besides the Khazar Jews, the kingdom of Semien ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Semien ) in east Africa peaked around this time.

Further, even if you don't think the Khazars are "Jewish" because of your racist "not true Jewish ethnicity" nonsense, the fact is that the Khazars WERE NOT TENGRI. So we have a problem where we have a large Khazar state that called itself Jewish, that you say is not "real Jews" but that the developers then call Tengri.

So even if you were right that Khazars aren't "Jewish" it certainly doesn't make them Tengri.

Well I'm going to buy it when it's a daily deal on steam. And I would like to see Jews/Judaism there. So I do can participate in this discussion to some extent.

I never said they were not Jewish. In fact I explicitly stated that Jews are a non-exclusive ethnic group and that according to Jewish tradition converts to Judaism doesn't just convert to the religion but becomes part of the people as well. Kinda like an adoption on grander scale. I also said that while there is such a thing as a Jewish ethnicity (again a non-exclusive one) I wouldn't know for sure that it is a prerequisite for being an adherent of Judaism.

 

[unmerged(175146)]

Weren't the Jews originally black, then they either intermarried with Europeans and/or Arabs? Or today's Jews are decided from the converts of eastern Turkey?

I think that both the khazars and intermarriage had a relatively small influence on the Jewish population. They to big extent descendants of the Israelites. They were really not black though. Middle Eastern.

 

[Jaywebbs]

I don't have the game yet so I can't comment on which game mechanics works best. My comments are about Jews in reality. They are a distinct culture/ethnic group with a distinct religion in reality. So if the goal is to reflect reality this has to be taken into consideration. However I can't comment on how achievable it is. If it's really worth striving for that kind of realism considering the work it might take or what other problems the developers might face. The question of Jewish identity is a complex one and maybe in some cases it's maybe better to strive for simplicity rather than absolute realism.

In Reality there is a Jewish culture but the Jewish culture is not the entire culture of individual Jews. This is where things such as nationality come in, German Jews and Polish Jews will having differing cultures, even though their Jewish culture will be the same. The in game culture mechanic basically refers to things that will differ between these groups such as native languages, This is referenced in the in game mechanics though their Norman to English Culture conversion events. And it was in this sense that I said 'Culturally Arab' in my initial post.

Also, Not to sound rude, but if you're going to chime in a discussion that largely is based in game mechanics, you should probably know the game mechanics in question.

 

[AndrewT]

Well I'm going to buy it when it's a daily deal on steam. .

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?702386-CK2-on-Flash-Sale-on-Steam

 

[unmerged(175146)]

In Reality there is a Jewish culture but the Jewish culture is not the entire culture of individual Jews. This is where things such as nationality come in, German Jews and Polish Jews will having differing cultures, even though their Jewish culture will be the same. The in game culture mechanic basically refers to things that will differ between these groups such as native languages, This is referenced in the in game mechanics though their Norman to English Culture conversion events. And it was in this sense that I said 'Culturally Arab' in my initial post.

Also, Not to sound rude, but if you're going to chime in a discussion that largely is based in game mechanics, you should probably know the game mechanics in question.

I guess that makes sense. Although I think at least during theses times the Jewish culture had a bigger influence than the German or Polish ones. From what I know Jews were rather isolated. But maybe that's just a common misconception.

Well I guess I can agree with that.

 

[unmerged(175146)]

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?702386-CK2-on-Flash-Sale-on-Steam

Thanks! Just bought it

 

[Lorehead]

I’ve weighed in with specific ideas before, and the devs have seen them if they’re going to. So I’ll just say this: there were historically Jewish rulers in the time period, and the interest is clearly there.

Incidentally, the Jumping Jews of Jerusalem could not, in that time period, have been actual Jews from the city of Jerusalem. At the time of Rabbi Petachia’s trip to the crusader kingdom (sometime before 1187), “He then went to [the city of] Jerusalem. The only Jew there is Rabbi Abraham, the dyer, and he pays a heavy tax to the king to be permitted to remain there.”

 

[VolitionNewlove]

I’ve weighed in with specific ideas before, and the devs have seen them if they’re going to. So I’ll just say this: there were historically Jewish rulers in the time period, and the interest is clearly there.

Incidentally, the Jumping Jews of Jerusalem could not, in that time period, have been actual Jews from the city of Jerusalem. At the time of Rabbi Petachia’s trip to the crusader kingdom (sometime before 1187), “He then went to [the city of] Jerusalem. The only Jew there is Rabbi Abraham, the dyer, and he pays a heavy tax to the king to be permitted to remain there.”

But the Blackadder episode takes place in 1486...

If the fires for you during a Crusader occupation of Jerusalem, just imagine imagine it's just Rabbi Abraham alone doing the show, instead.

 

[Lorehead]

That guy must really get around.

 

[wickermoon]

Um, can somebody link me to the jewish rulers mentioned here? I don't want to discredit anyone, I just couldn't find any. :/

(I mean, except for the Khazars :3)

 

[Lysistrata]

Should we also include Buddhism and Shamanism for the Mongols?

 

[VolitionNewlove]

Should we also include Buddhism and Shamanism for the Mongols?

I'm not sure any Mongols in the West converted to Buddhism...

And what exactly do you mean by "Shamanism?"

 

[solamyas]

Shamanism is included in Tengrism.

 

[wickermoon]

As far as I can see it, the Khazars were the first actual multi-cultural (or rather -religional) state, due to their rather tolerant rulers. so yeah, I'm sure Judaism as a religion seems kind of viable, if you leave out the judaic culture. Of course, considering the animosity towards jews in medieval europe and the muslim world, characters with a judaic religion would suffer quite the opinion malus, I'd think.

 

[Yoshijoe]

Hypothetical question: Would Christian rulers be able to holy war a Jewish ruler? Rather important question for gameplay I think.

 

[wickermoon]

As far as I know you can holy war any religion that is not of your religious group. Now, I don't know if people would put Judaism into the christian holy group, but I, for once, wouldn't and therefore, it would be able to holy war them.

 

[Dutchling]

As far as I know you can holy war any religion that is not of your religious group. Now, I don't know if people would put Judaism into the christian holy group, but I, for once, wouldn't and therefore, it would be able to holy war them.

CB are not that hardcoded, so the above is just silly and irrelevant.

 

[unmerged(205402)]

Khazars had dual monarchy, where one ruler had to be muslim, and second ruler had to be jewish. There was no power only in one man there. And in CK2 you cant create system for dual monarchy.

 

[solamyas]

Khazars had dual monarchy, where one ruler had to be muslim, and second ruler had to be jewish. There was no power only in one man there. And in CK2 you cant create system for dual monarchy.

ERE and almost all Altaic realms have dual monarchy but Khazars dont have any Muslim ruler. Did you mean Tengrist?

 

[GreatSlayer]

As far as I know you can holy war any religion that is not of your religious group. Now, I don't know if people would put Judaism into the christian holy group, but I, for once, wouldn't and therefore, it would be able to holy war them.

I'd put the Christians in the Jewish religion group. With "parent=judaism" (i.e. heresy).