Jews in CK2

[solamyas]

What are you talking about?

Khazars are Turk and some of the Khazars religion is Judaism. It isn't etno-religion for them.
IMO Sephardic culture in Iberian culture group, Ashkenazi culture in Central Germanic culture group etc, an israelitesgfx file and double "same religion" releations bonus for Judaism is would be more accurate in current game engine.

 

[unmerged(175146)]

Khazars are Turk and some of the Khazars religion is Judaism. It isn't etno-religion for them.
IMO Sephardic culture in Iberian culture group, Ashkenazi culture in Central Germanic culture group etc, an israelitesgfx file and double "same religion" releations bonus for Judaism is would be more accurate in current game engine.

Well it's not a simple discussion really. First of all regardless if the Khazars considered themselves part of a Jewish ethnicity/culture or not there is such a thing as Jewish ethnicity/culture. The fact is that Jews are an ethnicity and Judaism is a religion and these two are very closely interrelated. While I'm not saying that it's impossible to adhere to Judaism without being ethnically Jewish the ethnic aspect of Jews should not be disregarded. That would be erroneous.

Also worth noting is that according to Jewish religion when you convert to Judaism you join the Jewish people, which is as said an ethnic group. Jews are hence a non-exclusive ethnic group.

 

[Star Era]

Well it's not a simple discussion really. First of all regardless if the Khazars considered themselves part of a Jewish ethnicity/culture or not there is such a thing as Jewish ethnicity/culture. The fact is that Jews are an ethnicity and Judaism is a religion and these two are very closely interrelated. While I'm not saying that it's impossible to adhere to Judaism without being ethnically Jewish the ethnic aspect of Jews should not be disregarded. That would be erroneous.

Also worth noting is that according to Jewish religion when you convert to Judaism you join the Jewish people, which is as said an ethnic group. Jews are hence a non-exclusive ethnic group.

Having not met many Jews, I have always wondered about this. Thank you for explaining it as I assume you are Jewish yourself.

 

[unmerged(175146)]

Having not met many Jews, I have always wondered about this. Thank you for explaining it as I assume you are Jewish yourself.

Glad to help!

Well certainly not in the religious sense but ethnically I consider myself half Jewish.

 

[Jaywebbs]

Mizrahi Jews are not Arabs. They are Jews from Muslim (not necessarily Arab) countries. Yes ethnicity and religion can be seen as two separate things, but Jews are an etno-religious group which means Jews are a cultural/ethnic group as well. So if they are to be included they should be a cultural group also. For example I am sure some regions of Poland had a Jewish cultural majority,

Ethnicity does not equal culture. While I disagree with the idea that 'Judaism is an Ethnicity not just a Religion' I'm not going to argue about that, because frankly I find it irrelevant to the topic and will do nothing to further the discussion.

However for the sake of the broad spectrum of aspects that 'culture' in this game defines, there would be Jews in game that would fall in different culture groups, because religion may be a apart of ones culture but it is not all of it.

 

[NI_Mcknight]

Who cares

 

[Jaywebbs]

Obviously enough people to keep this topic alive for so long and make enough responses to compose 10 pages.

The Question is, if you don't care, why are you posting in here?

 

[Joel M Bridge]

Can see the tyical medieval Jew show court character or influence show through events.

My question how will they show jewish ruler off.

 

[heliostellar]

Ethnicity does not equal culture. While I disagree with the idea that 'Judaism is an Ethnicity not just a Religion' I'm not going to argue about that, because frankly I find it irrelevant to the topic and will do nothing to further the discussion.

However for the sake of the broad spectrum of aspects that 'culture' in this game defines, there would be Jews in game that would fall in different culture groups, because religion may be a apart of ones culture but it is not all of it.

Well, culture involves things such as language, food, and societal expectations. I can see an argument for a Jewish culture in the game regardless of ethnicity (i.e. Ashkenazi vs Sephardi). Such a distinction exists in Victoria 2.

 

[Jaywebbs]

Well, culture involves things such as language, food, and societal expectations. I can see an argument for a Jewish culture in the game regardless of ethnicity (i.e. Ashkenazi vs Sephardi). Such a distinction exists in Victoria 2.

While religion does play apart in these things, there's also a great deal about the culture that isn't influenced by religion. For Example traditional food of Ashkenazi Jews isn't the same as Sephardi Jews, even though they have the same Dietary laws. Even in language there's variations between the Jewish groups, specifically Yiddish is almost exclusively a language spoken by the Ashkenazi. While there are also examples in major differences in these groups, affected by religion, but not affected by the culture in game, for example, and Andalusian Christian, and an Andalusian Muslim will have very different game play, even though they are the same culture.

 

[Talq]

Of course, if there were a Jewish culture in game, and your Jewish courtiers used it, they would be scoring both the -20 foreigner and the -30 infidel penalty with everybody else in the realm (unless you fiddled with more fundamental game mechanics). Suffice to say, that is probably not what most of the people who want the Jewish religion in game would want. Letting them keep their local culture is probably easier.

Of course, creating new cultures just for courtiers also lets representatives of other small cultures not represented in game be disgruntled.

 

[unmerged(175146)]

Ethnicity does not equal culture. While I disagree with the idea that 'Judaism is an Ethnicity not just a Religion' I'm not going to argue about that, because frankly I find it irrelevant to the topic and will do nothing to further the discussion.

However for the sake of the broad spectrum of aspects that 'culture' in this game defines, there would be Jews in game that would fall in different culture groups, because religion may be a apart of ones culture but it is not all of it.

Well it's not the same thing but there is such a thing as a Jewish culture that arose due to its separate religion and ethnicity.

Yes that's why we could have Ashkenazi, Sephardi, Mizrahi and whatnot subgroups of Jewish culture.

 

[Jaywebbs]

Well it's not the same thing but there is such a thing as a Jewish culture that arose due to its separate religion and ethnicity.

Yes that's why we could have Ashkenazi, Sephardi, Mizrahi and whatnot subgroups of Jewish culture.

So instead of just adding one new culture we have four, when already existing cultures would work, and, current game mechanic wise better reflect reality.

 

[Lysistrata]

A lot of hair-splitting going on, as always.

 

[Jorlem]

Jews were sometimes hired as land managers for lords, who were off at the court of their liege, and, lacking the teleportation system present in CK2's medieval Europe, could not properly oversee the land they held title to. So, perhaps a mechanic could be developed where Jewish courtiers could manage a title, but not truly own it. Their stats would be used in place of the true owner for that particular title, making it a useful strategy for if your current character has bad stats. It could be balanced by an increased rebellion risk in that province, with the rebellion having the goal of removing the Jewish land manager, and the rest of the local Jewish population. Then the player would be in the position of being able to potentially disrupt this persecution, which is almost certainly better for Paradox than the player being on the other side of things. (It would have to be a landed title, obviously.)


Yes, it is a mechanic for Christian rulers with Jewish courtiers, not players playing Jewish characters, but I think the game would benefit from an increase in interaction between different religions beyond war (and conversions).

 

[unmerged(175146)]

So instead of just adding one new culture we have four, when already existing cultures would work, and, current game mechanic wise better reflect reality.

I don't have the game yet so I can't comment on which game mechanics works best. My comments are about Jews in reality. They are a distinct culture/ethnic group with a distinct religion in reality. So if the goal is to reflect reality this has to be taken into consideration. However I can't comment on how achievable it is. If it's really worth striving for that kind of realism considering the work it might take or what other problems the developers might face. The question of Jewish identity is a complex one and maybe in some cases it's maybe better to strive for simplicity rather than absolute realism.

 

[unmerged(764984)]

Weren't the Jews originally black, then they either intermarried with Europeans and/or Arabs? Or today's Jews are decided from the converts of eastern Turkey?

 

[grisamentum]

I don't have the game yet so I can't comment on which game mechanics works best. My comments are about Jews in reality. They are a distinct culture/ethnic group with a distinct religion in reality. So if the goal is to reflect reality this has to be taken into consideration. However I can't comment on how achievable it is. If it's really worth striving for that kind of realism considering the work it might take or what other problems the developers might face. The question of Jewish identity is a complex one and maybe in some cases it's maybe better to strive for simplicity rather than absolute realism.

You basically shouldn't even be talking about this because the only point of the discussion is Judaism in relation to the game, particularly in the 867 period. Besides the Khazar Jews, the kingdom of Semien ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Semien ) in east Africa peaked around this time.

Further, even if you don't think the Khazars are "Jewish" because of your racist "not true Jewish ethnicity" nonsense, the fact is that the Khazars WERE NOT TENGRI. So we have a problem where we have a large Khazar state that called itself Jewish, that you say is not "real Jews" but that the developers then call Tengri.

So even if you were right that Khazars aren't "Jewish" it certainly doesn't make them Tengri.

 

[SWVRoma]

Weren't the Jews originally black, then they either intermarried with Europeans and/or Arabs? Or today's Jews are decided from the converts of eastern Turkey?

No, considering the Jewish race originated somewhere around modern Iraq.

 

[unmerged(205402)]

No, considering the Jewish race originated somewhere around modern Iraq.

Jewish origin was in migration of Semnite people group. Who travel from Africa, across Red Sea (dont mess this with Moses history its diffrent story) and settle all around Arabia, all east coast of Mediterranean Sea and Mesopotamia. Origin of jewish feith born with history of Abraham who leave with his tribe home Ur and travel to Kanaan. Most interesting is concept that at begining jewish people could not be monotheistic at all, first point in decalog is "no other gods before me". So this can suggest that early jewish dont say "no other gods exist" only that "our god is first other rest of them". It could be just some patron god of whole jewish tribe. Monoteism could born with contact in Egyptian worship of Aton, who faraon want to set as the only god. Ofc he end fast dead because of not happy about this priest of multi gods temples. There also could born concept of angel creatures. It could be not the only thing when one religion influence other religion. For example early christianity looks like total mix of all kind of things you can meet in late roman times. Like cult of mother of Jesus, in place of popular cult of exotic Isis. Multi god cult that every god have its own patronal proffesion, in place of this you get saints. Many popular christian cult days was earlier cult of Mitra, most messiahah history of Jesus was almoust same like zoroastrian religion version who born much earlier than christianity. But going back to jewish history I read about, during roman times many of jewish people start travel from origin homeland. To Europe thanks to Pax Romana, to Africa (even earlier from times of king Salomon) to Asia thanks to rise of Persia who set stable routes to east. You could even find jewish people in India in ancient times. Ofc such spread of people MUST be merge with mixing with local group of peoples so its imposible to hold one ethnical origin. Its why in today Israel are accepted black jewish from Ethiopia, post-Turk khazars who settle in Europe. Early romaned jewish from Spain who had hard times with Inqusition but slighty more peace under local Muslim dynasty in the past. Even this groups from India have access to Israel to settle down. So jewish people even in Israel are not ethnical one group, they are unite only by religion and history of they roots.