Jewish DLC

[anomanderus]

I don't think thats a fair assertion. Jewish communities, AND the rise of antisemitism are very prevalent in Vicky.
To be completely honest, to say that Jewish states had any sort of relevant role in the CK2 time period is a bit of an overstatement.
I didnt extensively play EU:Rome so I cant say how well they were represented in that game, which is the period of time I would assume that the Jews should be spotlighted.

We've been saying Khazaria all over this thread. Did you even bother to look up Khazaria? In Rome the Jews just had a tiny kingdom in Israel under the Maccabees, in CK2 during the Old Gods they had a huge empire in the steppe. Which is more relevant- empire or little kingdom?

 

[GothicEmperor]

We've been saying Khazaria all over this thread. Did you even bother to look up Khazaria? In Rome the Jews just had a tiny kingdom in Israel under the Maccabees, in CK2 during the Old Gods they had a huge empire in the steppe. Which is more relevant- empire or little kingdom?

Saying that 'the Jews had an empire' is a inaccurate. It's more accurate to say that the Empire had some Jews in it, and that the upper echelons of society (the elite, so a rather small part of the population) had converted to Judaism. Khazaria was a very multi-ethnic, multi-religious empire.

 

[anomanderus]

Saying that 'the Jews had an empire' is a inaccurate. It's more accurate to say that the Empire had some Jews in it, and that the upper echelons of society (the elite, so a rather small part of the population) had converted to Judaism. Khazaria was a very multi-ethnic, multi-religious empire.

The Khan was a Jew. The game is about playing the Emperors, kings, dukes and counts. I don't care what the filthy peasants believe, just that they understand their place beneath me as their lord and master.

 

[Yakdast]

where? Give that quote.

If you google search you can find a closed thread on this forum where one of the developers says that Judaism will not be included.

I'm sad.

 

[Lemont Elwood]

Exactly. As leader, you can order your Jew Spiritual to convert the heathen.

Though that wouldn't make a whole lot of sense for Jews...

Maybe they should be a religion that has to be Reformed as well, since they historically had no drive to convert and conquer?

 

[anomanderus]

If you google search you can find a closed thread on this forum where one of the developers says that Judaism will not be included.

I'm sad.

If you actually read this thread you'd see that we debunked that claim.

 

[Joel M Bridge]

Saying that 'the Jews had an empire' is a inaccurate. It's more accurate to say that the Empire had some Jews in it, and that the upper echelons of society (the elite, so a rather small part of the population) had converted to Judaism. Khazaria was a very multi-ethnic, multi-religious empire.

Still when your Khan is Jewish that big deal.

 

[Yakdast]

If you actually read this thread you'd see that we debunked that claim.

you did? Oh darn... sorry - I'm sleepy that is all

 

[Yakdast]

Jewish faith had a nice orange map color in CK1

 

[Jorlem]

Exactly. As leader, you can order your Jew Spiritual to convert the heathen.

Though that wouldn't make a whole lot of sense for Jews...

Maybe they should be a religion that has to be Reformed as well, since they historically had no drive to convert and conquer?

There are records of forced conversion to Judaism, under the Hasmoneans, the ruling dynasty that descended from the Maccabees. Their rule ended with the Roman conquest of Judea, and following two attempted (and failed) revolts, Judaism was reformed to be able to survive without holy sites (such as Jerusalem) or a centralized hereditary priesthood (control shifted to the Rabbis instead.) If I recall my Jewish history professor correctly, the whole forced conversion thing backfired in a big way during the Roman invasion of Judea, which is why it was expressly forbidden in Jewish law when it was written down years later, as part of the process of reforming Judaism.

 

[Lorehead]

One possible feature for a DLC are small ethnic quarters in cities that form a trade network like the Radhanites, carrying news, technology and income across the world. The Nestorians are another group of people who could form a bridge from East to West (in this time period, the Mongol envoy to the Pope and the king of France was a Nestorian), or the inhabitants of your province who don't convert could become this type of enclave, as in Sicily. Also, Khazars, Beta Israel, courtiers and flavor events.

 

[unmerged(735288)]

Instead of discussing if they should be in or not, which is not up to us. It would be more interesting, what should be in a Jewish DLC if there ever is one.

Ideally it wouldn't be a "Jewish" dlc, but rather a religious politics DLC that contains Judaism, theocracy mechanics, and religious relations like those between Rome and Constantinople.

 

[Spartanlemur]

To be honest, I don't see how gameplay can be made to be fun. They're too similar to Christians, and don't have anything similar to the Zoroastrian events (Saoshyant, Moabads etc.) and so would not make for the most enjoyable DLC.
Something which might be more enjoyable would be a minor DLC to spruce up the West African Pagans to Norse level, along with an African music pack.

 

[Saltiren]

The mechanic for Jewish gameplay wouldn't be very interesting, and there were no real Jewish Rulers at the time. To implement them in would only cause controversy. Just like this thread.

 

[AvihooI]

I believe a system of a Jewish religion (from my understanding of Judaism, being one myself [though an atheist]) should first be decentralized (no religion head - but rather ad-hoc assembly for decisions such as excomunnication). Conversion should only be applied to those who have the "culture" of Jewish, since Judaism is a non-missionary religion - converting Jews to other religions should at least be an order of magnitude harder than converting others (say 10% of projected annual chance). It should also be more tolerable by other monotheistic religions (christianity and islamic denominations) - meaning a Jewish holding is less likely to revolt against a tolerating ruler, and the diplomacy penalties should be less severe. A De Jure Kingdom of Judea as well as a De Jure Empire of Israel (containing only Judea). Non-Jewish vassals to Jewish lieges could be force converted to Noachides (but not to Judaism) to prevent religious turmoil (but has other penalties), but such an option should be allowed only if the ruler who converts is part of the Empire of Israel.

 

[TheLionHeart]

To be honest, I don't see how gameplay can be made to be fun. They're too similar to Christians, and don't have anything similar to the Zoroastrian events (Saoshyant, Moabads etc.) and so would not make for the most enjoyable DLC.
Something which might be more enjoyable would be a minor DLC to spruce up the West African Pagans to Norse level, along with an African music pack.

Or African provinces, it's so empty and pointless. There's nothing to expand to after achieving your king and emperor title, it's so boring.

 

[Syphus]

I believe a system of a Jewish religion (from my understanding of Judaism, being one myself [though an atheist]) should first be decentralized (no religion head - but rather ad-hoc assembly for decisions such as excomunnication). Conversion should only be applied to those who have the "culture" of Jewish, since Judaism is a non-missionary religion - converting Jews to other religions should at least be an order of magnitude harder than converting others (say 10% of projected annual chance). It should also be more tolerable by other monotheistic religions (christianity and islamic denominations) - meaning a Jewish holding is less likely to revolt against a tolerating ruler, and the diplomacy penalties should be less severe. A De Jure Kingdom of Judea as well as a De Jure Empire of Israel (containing only Judea). Non-Jewish vassals to Jewish lieges could be force converted to Noachides (but not to Judaism) to prevent religious turmoil (but has other penalties), but such an option should be allowed only if the ruler who converts is part of the Empire of Israel.

While there's never been a religious head, there have been country-specific chief rabbis that go all the way back to this time period. However, the only one I can think of that was actually officially appointed was in Poland in the 1500s. For what it's worse.

The mechanic for Jewish gameplay wouldn't be very interesting, and there were no real Jewish Rulers at the time. To implement them in would only cause controversy. Just like this thread.

Oh yes...I remember the controversy when they were put in CK1 and in Victoria....THE CONTROVERSY!!!

 

[hylander25k]

We've been saying Khazaria all over this thread. Did you even bother to look up Khazaria? In Rome the Jews just had a tiny kingdom in Israel under the Maccabees, in CK2 during the Old Gods they had a huge empire in the steppe. Which is more relevant- empire or little kingdom?

Um. Excuse me. You act like Khazaria was 100% Jewish. A VERY small percent of the actual population was Jewish. AND even thats debated. We know the aristocracy largely was, but that was from the 8th century into maybe the late 9th or 10th. That's 200 years TOPS of Judaism in a very small part of the entire population. Khazaria was comprised of Christians, Tengris and Muslims. Probably some Zoros in there too (parts of Persia fell under Khazaria.) But I'm not crying 'Y THER NO CHRISTIAN KHAZARS.'

And the Classical Era was still the Jewish Golden age. Before the Romans, the Jews had interactions with the Greeks, the Persians. The Kingdom of David, Judea, Israel. Those are all time periods specific and relevant to Jewish history. Hell, the fact that the Jews had special treatment in Rome makes them more important than the Khazars are in CK2.

To be honest, we have no clue how Judaism even affected the Khazars. Portions of the nobility converted to Judaism in the 8th century. That's what we know. Accounts of their devoutness varied. Some scholars said that 'All Khazars were Jews' while others said that they were only Jews in name.

 

[Syphus]

Um. Excuse me. You act like Khazaria was 100% Jewish. A VERY small percent of the actual population was Jewish. AND even thats debated. We know the aristocracy largely was, but that was from the 8th century into maybe the late 9th or 10th. That's 200 years TOPS of Judaism in a very small part of the entire population. Khazaria was comprised of Christians, Tengris and Muslims. Probably some Zoros in there too (parts of Persia fell under Khazaria.) But I'm not crying 'Y THER NO CHRISTIAN KHAZARS.'

Again...this is a game about playing the royalty. Also I'm pretty sure I looked and saw Orthodox rulers in the Old Gods start.

 

[AvihooI]

While there's never been a religious head, there have been country-specific chief rabbis that go all the way back to this time period. However, the only one I can think of that was actually officially appointed was in Poland in the 1500s. For what it's worse.

Which could in the game be implemented as rulers of Bet-Midrash (place of learning) or Bet-Knesset (Synagogue), or maybe even as Court Chaplain... but they're not really head of the religion, since unlike Christianity (and I suppose Islam), there's no messenger of God on earth, and it's considered heresy to claim one is (hence, Messianic Judaism).