Jewish DLC

[Andaries]

Isn't that exactly the question that the mod said isn't worth discussing in the post you quoted?

By what it should add I was interested in ideas that would go into the dlc. The introduction of the religion should add a decent change and play style to the game. I am not against personally seeing a dlc come out with the Jewish faith nor saying its a waste of time. If anything I agree with statement that we should be talking about what should be in it if it was made.

If you really want Jewish faith added to this game your going to have to present aspects that would otherwise not exist in the game. I was interested in hearing ideas from people who have more knowledge on the subject then me. Since as I said outside of 4 random events for Catholics in Europe I cant think of a whole lot reason mostly due to lack of knowing a whole lot of the faith in this time period.

 

[unmerged(619282)]

I don t want a jewish DLC

 

[stern]

People complaining that a whole dedicated dlc for jewish is waste of time, money and work

I agree. Jewish religion should come in the theocracy DLC and associated with republics.

People complaining hat jews would be only courtiers coming and going without any impact at the game

Here I disagree. Like I said in the 1066 starting date we could have 3 jewish buldings in the game, one in Cordoba, one in Troyes or Mainz and the other in Baghda, each one ruled by a hereditary nasir/grand rabbi/exilarch/rosh galut, pretty much like the Hashinshins in Iran and Syria; these buldings could give cultural and economic bonus but at the same time an opinion mallus with your vassals and the church. Jews could be expelled with the change of government, with certain time events (i.e. crusades) or with religion conversion inside your realm.
And pogroms aren't that hard to represent, you can write a very light and generic thing that doesn't sound offensive or stereotypical.

 

[Jorlem]

Jews were historically employed as both tax collectors and land administrators in Poland (admittedly, that was mostly towards the end and after the CK2 timeframe, IIRC), and were allowed to hold public office in southern France until the Albigensian Crusade in 1209. Perhaps Jews could be employed in game as Stewards, with a bonus to the tax collection mission, or be 'granted' baron level holdings (but not counties or above, or religious holdings), passing a larger percentage of the income of the holding to the liege that granted them the holding in return for an increased revolt/rebellion risk. The holding itself would pass back to the liege upon the death of either the Jewish administrator or the liege, or with a successful anti-semitic rebellion (which would disallow setting Jewish administrators in that county for some amount of time, say, twenty five years?)

That is in addition to moneylender events and such. Also, Christian merchants were often in competition with Jewish merchants, who traditionally were the ones who brought goods back from the middle east. So maybe it could be possible for a country to have a vassal merchant republic with Jewish families, who cannot declare wars (especially holy wars).

Edit:
For the rebellion, maybe they could technically be at war with just the administrated barony or city, so they could siege it directly, and get to 100% warscore fairly quickly. As rebels, you'd still be to attack them to stop them. (Though there could be an issue with getting the pop up letting you know they are there, I suppose.)

 

[grisamentum]

Jews were historically employed as both tax collectors and land administrators in Poland (admittedly, that was mostly towards the end and after the CK2 timeframe, IIRC), and were allowed to hold public office in southern France until the Albigensian Crusade in 1209. Perhaps Jews could be employed in game as Stewards, with a bonus to the tax collection mission, or be 'granted' baron level holdings (but not counties or above, or religious holdings), passing a larger percentage of the income of the holding to the liege that granted them the holding in return for an increased revolt/rebellion risk. The holding itself would pass back to the liege upon the death of either the Jewish administrator or the liege, or with a successful anti-semitic rebellion (which would disallow setting Jewish administrators in that county for some amount of time, say, twenty five years?)

That is in addition to moneylender events and such. Also, Christian merchants were often in competition with Jewish merchants, who traditionally were the ones who brought goods back from the middle east. So maybe it could be possible for a country to have a vassal merchant republic with Jewish families, who cannot declare wars (especially holy wars).

Edit:
For the rebellion, maybe they could technically be at war with just the administrated barony or city, so they could siege it directly, and get to 100% warscore fairly quickly. As rebels, you'd still be to attack them to stop them. (Though there could be an issue with getting the pop up letting you know they are there, I suppose.)

This isn't exactly a useful way to approach a Judaism DLC, because the focus should be on Judaism from the Jewish perspective, which is pretty multifaceted and goes way beyond "Jews living in Christian kingdoms and periodically being kicked out." In 867 you have Khazaria, and Beta Israel in Ethiopia. Even in 1066 you have the last Khazar dukes as vassals to the Cumans.

To me, it seems like a Judaism DLC wouldn't be enough to stand on its own, which is why it's so completely ridiculous that it wasn't included in the Old Gods. Judaism in CK2 should be in a very similar situation to Zoroastrianism in 867; a couple of small rulers left, but if you manage to recapture a certain territory, you can reform your religious hierarchy, gain a special title, etc. Instead of needing to gain control of the Persian Empire, though, it would be regaining control of k_jerusalem, declaring yourself the second coming of David or something with sufficient traits/prestige/piety, destroying the Al-Aqsa Mosque and rebuilding the Temple of Solomon, etc.

You probably couldn't come up with 5 holy sites for Judaism that were sufficient far enough apart to matter, so maybe you'd just have it be 10% per ducal title held in k_jerusalem or something. I don't know if anyone else has thought more about that or has a better solution.

 

[stern]

In Andalus jews served as councillors and military leaders. I can't see how implementing this in a future DLC of religions could be so troublesome.

 

[Doukan]

In an age when usury was forbidden by the church, really stereotypical, but maybe some sort of banking system with Jewish money lenders?
Vanilla CK2 lacks a loan system after all.
Also, could someone please direct me to where paradox state their stance towards implementation of the Jews in their games? I can't seem to find it anywhere.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

Several off topic posts have been deleted.

I do hope that I don't have to close this thread because people can't stay on topic.

Please discuss what could be the features of a Jewish DLC.

And of course genocide or pogroms will never be a feature, so don't discuss it.

 

[GreatSlayer]

Mend the schism. Christiany and Islam becomes a heresy of Judaism. Too much? Too little?

 

[maxirage]

Although it's a bit simplistic and gamey, the influence of Judaism can be represented by a bonus to stewardship. As in, characters who are Jewish would get a trait or other modifier to increase stewardship and face no negative religious opinion modifiers unless traits like zealous are involved. This would represent their ability to be bankers, moneylenders, and possess other finance-orientated jobs when other faiths could not, which was their most important role in this era.

For the actual mechanics of the religion, something like Zoroastrianism would probably be the most accurate. It would be a pre-established religion with no religious leader, unless Jerusalem is retaken. In that case the rabbi of Jerusalem would be the religious head in charge of excommunication and the like. Also, the re-establishment of the Israel could be easily be done by localizing the name of the Kingdom of Jerusalem under a Jewish leader, into the Kingdom of Israel.

 

[VolitionNewlove]

Although it's a bit simplistic and gamey, the influence of Judaism can be represented by a bonus to stewardship. As in, characters who are Jewish would get a trait or other modifier to increase stewardship and face no negative religious opinion modifiers unless traits like zealous are involved. This would represent their ability to be bankers, moneylenders, and possess other finance-orientated jobs when other faiths could not, which was their most important role in this era.

But Judaism is only special in this regard when compared to the other Abrahamic faiths. (In terms of usury not being prohibited.) Pagans do not have prohibitions on usury.

 

[The Kingmaker]

On Paradox's recent Twitch TV video, the question of a Jewish DLC was briefly raised. Doomdark's response was simply "never say never."

 

[Pietrus]

IMO it would be fun to play as a Jewish ruler, since there are so few of them. Maybe start in Jerusalem or Spain where there were a larger number of them around 1000 AD.

Thoughts?

Paradox has stated that there will be no dlc an any form relating to judaism because there a simply no landed characters who are jewish throighout thr ck2 time period. Mods are always and option though if you want to be a jewish character.

 

[AvihooI]

Yes, Paradox, please add Jews so I can create my Jewy Empire and rule over the old world!

On a more serious note, there weren't any Jewish rulers during the middle ages, except for I reckon the converted Khazars. However, that doesn't mean a potential Jewish county couldn't arise which would eventually become independent and has the opportunity to grow.

It really gets boring playing the same history nieches over and over again... adding some "what if" elements to the game could create a lot of replayability. I am totally in favour of that, also because I'm myself a Jew (a cynic, skeptical and atheist one at that) and it'd be cool living your people in the middle ages - like I'm sure many of you do as well... don't take that immense fun from us Jews or we'll do what we always do and label you anti-semites

 

[Jorlem]

This isn't exactly a useful way to approach a Judaism DLC, because the focus should be on Judaism from the Jewish perspective, which is pretty multifaceted and goes way beyond "Jews living in Christian kingdoms and periodically being kicked out." In 867 you have Khazaria, and Beta Israel in Ethiopia. Even in 1066 you have the last Khazar dukes as vassals to the Cumans.

To me, it seems like a Judaism DLC wouldn't be enough to stand on its own, which is why it's so completely ridiculous that it wasn't included in the Old Gods. Judaism in CK2 should be in a very similar situation to Zoroastrianism in 867; a couple of small rulers left, but if you manage to recapture a certain territory, you can reform your religious hierarchy, gain a special title, etc. Instead of needing to gain control of the Persian Empire, though, it would be regaining control of k_jerusalem, declaring yourself the second coming of David or something with sufficient traits/prestige/piety, destroying the Al-Aqsa Mosque and rebuilding the Temple of Solomon, etc.

You probably couldn't come up with 5 holy sites for Judaism that were sufficient far enough apart to matter, so maybe you'd just have it be 10% per ducal title held in k_jerusalem or something. I don't know if anyone else has thought more about that or has a better solution.

I was thinking of it as a portion of a larger 'theocracy' DLC, not as a complete standalone, to be honest. The possibility and existance of Jewish kingdoms is obviously something necessary, but Jews also had a role in Europe under Christian rule, and if Jews are included, I felt that should be reflected as well (and everyone else seems to be covering the independent kingdom side of things already.)

On the conversion issue, there's a historical precedent for how to deal with this, at least for Catholics: The pope issued a Papal bull titled Sicut Judaeis in 1120, which, among other things, disallowed the forced conversion of Jews on pain of excommunication. This obviously didn't always hold, but forcing Jews to convert to Catholicism could incur an opinion penalty with the Pope. Jews had a well documented place in Muslim law, so forcing Jews to convert could remove the bonus tax revenue modifier counties can get, and apply a similar negative modifier if the positive one wasn't in place.

Also, as has been stated earlier, Judaism should start out reformed. Specifically, it was reformed after the destruction of the second Temple and the Roman conquest of Judea, to be able to survive without the Temple or other holy sites. This suggests that Judaism should have a rather unique moral authority system (if it has one at all), but I don't know what it could be.

 

[Mixxer5]

And of course genocide or pogroms will never be a feature, so don't discuss it.

No offense, but why? We can offer our child to devil during event chain, sacrifice random prisoners, pillage villages (with tog) and murder newborn kids, but somehow pogroms (genocide is already in game I think- with last dlc), although being completely historical "feature" is not even discussable. Why is that so? I could never find any statement made by devs concerning this, actually...

 

[xittix]

Too much work for Paradox to please too few to focus on a Jewish DLC. I'd much rather see something revolving around playable Theocracies.

 

[Jakalak]

I love how the majority of these responses are verbatim from earlier in the thread, and completely refuse to answer any of the numerous posts that criticize their point, ie. that Jews had no holdings at this time and would only be courtiers.

I'm also kind of curious how many people here who say Judaism would be a useless feature supported *Sunset Invasion.

 

[Mehow_pwn]

I don t want a jewish DLC

Don't be such a hater, the Jews have always played a interesting role in Europe. I don't see why not

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

No offense, but why? We can offer our child to devil during event chain, sacrifice random prisoners, pillage villages (with tog) and murder newborn kids, but somehow pogroms (genocide is already in game I think- with last dlc), although being completely historical "feature" is not even discussable. Why is that so? I could never find any statement made by devs concerning this, actually...

What is so hard to understand when I say don't discuss it.