Jewish DLC

[GreatSlayer]

Considering the game is about historical plausibility, and the chance to rewrite history, ways to "hamper " Judaism from spreading unless under very specific circumstances, doesn't actually Have to be made. We have a mechanic with the Old Gods now that prevent certain religions from converting other courtiers, so I say lets just stick with that.

As for original gameplay, no negative opinion of heathens unless the usual zealous, "selling "well educated courtiers, Sabbath instead of feast, tbh, I don't really see a point having to flesh Judaism out. When playing female characters aren't just "playing men, but with severely less content ", Judaism is my second highest priority implementation. Why it would need so much work, I do not know, nor see any need for.

It is these legal issues which make paradox wary about depicting Jews in this game, and why these threads get shut down. Nothing to do with fear of offending people, just fear of jail or having their games banned from a large part of Europe.

Please be more clear that you're speculating. Sweden has severe laws against hate speech and protection for vulnerable minorities. Still Islam (a vulnerable minority in Sweden) is in the game, so is homosexuals, and both are in, playable, and killable. The only controversy that exists are that on these forums, and no media outlet would give a rats ass.

 

[Galaahd]

What would be the point in having some jewish courtiers, occasionally? To justify a whole DLC, even? :|

Uninteresting and pointless. Also, I don't see why people are so obsessed about jews. It's not like they are the only minority which isn't represented in game at the moment.

 

[Kljunas]

Civilization 4 & 5 allowed a Jewish religion and even wiping out entire Jewish cities with nuclear bombs, so I don't think it's really the issue.

The question is: would it really add something? Religion of the general population is the majority. Some courtiers would be possible, but what would those add? I doubt many kings had Jewish courtires around. So we've the Jewish bankers, not sure what that would add.

There would be Jewish rulers in Semien and Khazaria, and you could use the ruler designer or make Jews educate your heir for some ahistorical fun. But they are less relevant in 1066 than 867 so I doubt we'll ever see a Jewish DLC. They should have been included in ToG to begin with imo.

 

[Delta107]

Just mod in the Jewish religion/culture it is not difficult.

 

[VolitionNewlove]

Just mod in the Jewish religion/culture it is not difficult.

95% of people don't use mods. And by the same token, why should we go about balancing Republics in patches, when mods can do that?

Edit: 81%

 

[GreatSlayer]

95% of people don't use mods. And by the same token, why should we go about balancing Republics in patches, when mods can do that?

Actually, it's 81%.

 

[VolitionNewlove]

Actually, it's 81%.

Ah, sorry. It's been a while since I'd seen the thread itself, I'm terrible at remembering numbers...

 

[Sinroth]

The biggest problem is that in the current system Jewish courtiers wouldn't have much to do. As it is, most courtiers just kind of sit around unless they have good stats and you make them an adviser, or you're running out of people to give land to. Jewish DLC would have to expand on court micromanagement and interaction, and probably on religious relations. If Paradox doesn't want to represent pogroms or anti-Jewish violence, they could always just have some kind of generic 'Tolerance' technology, which increases Jewish populations in your realm/improves odds of Jewish courtiers helping you out or offering their services.

 

[Zoob]

Too insignificant as dynastic rulers to be implemented surely.

 

[unmerged(48397)]

Too insignificant as dynastic rulers to be implemented surely.

Zoroastrians made even less sense from that standpoint. Nor west African paganism. The explanation from Paradox for not including Judaism was a technical/game mechanic reason. They didn't know how to implement it. Any other reasons one might have heard has only been the opinions of random people on this forum.

 

[Zoob]

Ok, so get rid of zoroastrians too, and west African pagans. Paradox sure do make rods for their own backs.

 

[Joel M Bridge]

Too insignificant as dynastic rulers to be implemented surely.

During start of game there pretty damn big Khan that Jewish, and nobility as well. Not common people but nobility is, don;t we play the nobility in this game?

 

[Frostschaden]

Quite amazing that this thread hasn't devolved into a trollfest.

There's Khazaria (in game already as Tengri in 867 and Orthodox in 1066), and the Kingdom of Semien (not in game), both medieval Jewish kingdoms.

There was of course a lot of persecution in the Middle Ages, but interestingly, the Popes spoke against it. From the 9th century till the First Crusade, there was also a quite peaceful period for the Jews in the Carolingian Empire and its successor states, with Mainz being the centre of European Jewry. The First Crusades brings back persecution in Germany, but we do know about the Bishop of Speyer saving the local Jewish community. Of course, many communities were slaughtered. The second crusade brings this persecution to France. In 1120, the pope issued Sicut Judaeis, which explicitly prohibited rulers forcefully converting Jews, bringing harm to them, or stealing from them, and this on pain of excommunication. The Byzantine Empire tolerated the Jews until the Latin occupation, but one major exception was Basil I, who is emperor in the 867 start date. There's a really interesting inter-religious dynamic here, and the rulers were incredibly stupid. It's obvious that if persecution was somehow mechanically included in Crusader Kings, it should come with a lot of penalties. Adding to that, the Jewish people were highly literate and didn't avoid lending money. Rulers were really hurting their kingdoms by driving them out.

There was also an interesting dynamic between Jews and Muslims. We identify a golden age of Jewish culture in Islamic Spain, which ended with the 1066 Granada massacre. An angry mob stormed the palace and actually crucified the Jewish vizier, afterwards massacring the Jewish population. The two exilarchs in Baghdad were treated with respect by the Muslims, being descendants of King David.

If (In)tolerance of Jews would be represented in the game, itcould perhaps best be represented by a law, which allows Jews to own titles and minor titles. Such a law would increase Church opinion, but also perhaps increase revolt risk. During crusades, an event could flare up mentioning persecution. You can either choose to defend the Jews (+ church opinion, perhaps a tolerant trait), or do nothing (-church opinion, you lose some Jewish courtiers, perhaps gain an intolerant trait). Allowing the player to actually actively persecute Jews seems a bridge too far.
Perhaps something can be done with the rebel system, or the technology system...

 

[Kyoumen]

This thread is not supposed to be about whether a Jewish DLC should be made, but what should be in it if it is. This is by specific request from a mod. Please take comments about what is "important" or "significant" to another thread.

 

[unmerged(48397)]

Ok, so get rid of zoroastrians too, and west African pagans. Paradox sure do make rods for their own backs.

Don't be so petulant. There's no need to get rid of anything. These religions and small and greater realms did historically exist, as did a Khazar Turkish Jewish royal dynasty of a vaning Khazar empire that ruled over a predominantly Tengric population. What CKII does is let players change history dramatically, and that's why it's fun. After all, the Norse eventually converted, but in this game you can "reform" your religion to stow the tide of conversions to Christianity.

 

[unmerged(48397)]

This thread is not supposed to be about whether a Jewish DLC should be made, but what should be in it if it is. This is by specific request from a mod. Please take comments about what is "important" or "significant" to another thread.

I sometimes wish mods would delete the offensive posts, rather than close a whole thread.

Anyway, I've already posted my suggestions for how a Jewish DLC might work mechanics wise. I'd also add that as Khazaria, there should be a cultural/religious tolerance bonus versus Tengric populations. Historically, the Khazar royalty pretty much didn't seem to care about the faith of their subjects.

 

[VolitionNewlove]

I sometimes wish mods would delete the offensive posts, rather than close a whole thread.

Anyway, I've already posted my suggestions for how a Jewish DLC might work mechanics wise. I'd also add that as Khazaria, there should be a cultural/religious tolerance bonus versus Tengric populations. Historically, the Khazar royalty pretty much didn't seem to care about the faith of their subjects.

Well, I'd probably say religious tolerance for subjects might be beneficial for nomadic nations in general, given their imperial nature. Of course, the worries here would be that "hordes don't need to be made any stronger."

 

[Delta107]

95% of people don't use mods. And by the same token, why should we go about balancing Republics in patches, when mods can do that?

Edit: 81%

I was writing about tweaking the game with a few lines. I can see a problem only if you play MP games campaigns with numerous players and its a trouble to change a few lines in a few files and add localization. I mean its not difficult to modify the game for personal use. Many people tweak the game as they like. Modifying files is not something removed from the game but integral. You mustn't mistake tweaking the game with using those extensive mods from the user modifications forums. As for events about Jews: there are religions in The Old Gods which have very very few custom events(Yet historically had far more followers than the Jewish religion).

 

[Kljunas]

I was writing about tweaking the game with a few lines. I can see a problem only if you play MP games campaigns with numerous players and its a trouble to change a few lines in a few files and add localization. I mean its not difficult to modify the game for personal use. Many people tweak the game as they like. Modifying files is not something removed from the game but integral. You mustn't mistake tweaking the game with using those extensive mods from the user modifications forums. As for events about Jews: there are religions in The Old Gods which have very very few custom events(Yet historically had far more followers than the Jewish religion).

That's a pretty big tweak to be honest. Adding the new religion is one thing, but you'd have to assign it to the Khazar rulers at game start, create new Jewish courtiers everywhere, add in the Kingdom of Semien... Sure, it's not difficult to do but it would be nice if it was in the vanilla game to begin with.

 

[VolitionNewlove]

That's a pretty big tweak to be honest. Adding the new religion is one thing, but you'd have to assign it to the Khazar rulers at game start, create new Jewish courtiers everywhere, add in the Kingdom of Semien... Sure, it's not difficult to do but it would be nice if it was in the vanilla game to begin with.

Yeah. One thing that bugs me is when someone just says 'mod it in' or 'play CK+' as a solution to any query made in a thread.