Jewish DLC

[cnafi]

What I find funny (and by funny, I mean so stupid it's enraging) is the people (or person?) who claims that Paradox doesn't include Jews because it would offend their "far-right fan base".

Far-right fan base.

Who said that? Unfortunately anti-Semitism is widespread and not confined to the far-right, much more prevalent on the left under the guise of "anti-Zionism".
But back on topic I don't see any reason why Jews shouldn't be represented with the Khazars and Semien. Just add them as a generic unplayable religion like Zoroastrianism was if you don't want to flesh them out.

 

[The Kingmaker]

Aside from Khazaria, etc. I think it would be interesting to put the Jews in their historical context. So you could have prominent Jews at court. Could make them advisors. Scholars, merchants, travelers. And Jewish flavor events as well. You could have an option to take a loan from them if you become poor or desperate. You could also choose whether or not to even let them in your country in the first place. Or you could be like William the Conqueror and actually bring them with you.

 

[Khezef]

Aside from Khazaria, etc. I think it would be interesting to put the Jews in their historical context. So you could have prominent Jews at court. Could make them advisors. Scholars, merchants, travelers. And Jewish flavor events as well. You could have an option to take a loan from them if you become poor or desperate. You could also choose whether or not to even let them in your country. Or you could be like William the Conqueror and actually bring them with you.

And if you are friendly, they might even offer to convert you. That would be an interesting game to play.

 

[VolitionNewlove]

Perhaps having Jewish courtiers would remove the penalty for Usury, if we need a way to depict Jewish courtiers in relation to Usury.

 

[stern]

It still would be a good idea to discuss unique gameplay mechanics, as the Veldmaarschalk said. As you know more about the religion, particularly in medieval history, what do you believe would be a good unique mechanic for Judaism?

I am of the opinion that jews would be more appropriate in a theocracy DLC and also connected with republics. As I said I don't think Khazars and ethiopians represent properly the jewish religion and influence in the medieval world.

Thinking very sketchy mechanics, a jewish building could appear suddenly in provinces (=Hashinshins in Syria and Iran) such as Safed giving certain bonus but at the same time provoking social unrest (5% of revolt?) and bad relation with vassals in the same way that happens if you have heretic vassals under you for a long time ("I can't believe you permit such thing!", etc); if the province is Cordoba the bonus is cultural, if the province is coastal in Italy (i.e. Trieste) or landlocked in West Germany the bonus is economic...
I can't think of more things. The game should really represent how the reconquista of Iberia sent all the rich sephardis to Turkey, Palestine and Syria, many of them escaping with their wealth.

 

[cnafi]

I am of the opinion that jews would be more appropriate in a theocracy DLC and also connected with republics. As I said I don't think Khazars and ethiopans represent properly the jewish religion and influence in the medieval world.[/URL].

Yep, aside from their religion Semien and the Khazars share nothing in common, I really can't think of Judaism specific mechanics that would fit in with CK2 gameplay.

 

[cnafi]

EDIT: Some posters on this site make it really hard for me to like Jews. They keep attacking Paradox for not including them. Not everything in life revolves around Jews thank you!!!!

People just want a historical game to be historically accurate.

 

[nyah]

Thinking very sketchy mechanics, jews could appear suddenly in provinces (=Hashinshins in Syria and Iran) giving certain bonus but at the same time provoking social unrest (5% of revolt?) and bad relation with vassals

Should there then be events or decisions that enable the removal of the newly appeared Jews? Can anybody think of any problems that might arise from those events?

 

[VolitionNewlove]

I am of the opinion that jews would be more appropriate in a theocracy DLC and also connected with republics. As I said I don't think Khazars and ethiopians represent properly the jewish religion and influence in the medieval world.

Thinking very sketchy mechanics, a jewish building could appear suddenly in provinces (=Hashinshins in Syria and Iran) such as Safed giving certain bonus but at the same time provoking social unrest (5% of revolt?) and bad relation with vassals in the same way that happens if you have heretic vassals under you for a long time ("I can't believe you permit such thing!", etc); if the province is Cordoba the bonus is cultural, if the province is coastal in Italy (i.e. Trieste) or landlocked in West Germany the bonus is economic...
I can't think of more things. The game should really represent how the reconquista of Iberia sent all the rich sephardis to Turkey, Palestine and Syria, many of them escaping with their wealth.

I suppose the changing tide of religious tolerance during the Reconquista could work well with a mechanic, after all, in the same region, there also used to be more tolerance between Christians and Muslims, with occasional alliances between different faiths. There might be a possibility to have slightly more dynamic relations between the 'infidel' and 'heretic' relationship malus.

 

[nyah]

People just want a historical game to be historically accurate.

How should pogroms be implemented?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_c...es_at_London_and_York_.281189.E2.80.931190.29

At the moment a player can forcibly convert characters to their own religion. Can you explain how those mechanics would be implemented for Jewish characters without offending people?

 

[stern]

Should there then be events or decisions that enable the removal of the newly appeared Jews? Can anybody think of any problems that might arise from those events?

If modeling judaism after orthodox christianism, with each autonomous head for a different community, these buldings should be like mobile holy sites? A rosh galuta in Bagdah or other iraqian province for mizrahi jews, a council in Cordoba for sephardis and a grand yeshiva either in France, Italy or Germany for ashkenazis?
Conquering Iberia as a christians should make the council flee Cordoba for Morrocos, Egypt or Safed... The crusades together with some events should give the choice for french or german ruler if they want to preserve the community (which flees to the east, to Netherlands or to a coastal province owned by a republic), and the religious tensions during Seljuq rule in Persia (the same time of Al-Ghazali, when Hashinshins appears and shias are being persecuted) makes the rosh galuta flee for Yemen or Safed?

I'm sorry for the bland suggestion I'm almost falling asleep here.

 

[cnafi]

How should pogroms be implemented?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_c...es_at_London_and_York_.281189.E2.80.931190.29

At the moment a player can forcibly convert characters to their own religion. Can you explain how those mechanics would be implemented for Jewish characters without offending people?

Millions of people were killed and forcefully expelled in similar circumstances during the middle ages, I don't know why some have the idea that Jews are some ultra-sensitive people who need to be mollycoddled.
I don't think pogroms or Jewish minority populations need to be implemented, they don't fit it with CK2 mechanics and are unimportant to the game.

 

[Lemont Elwood]

Why should we care one bit about "controversy" or "offending people"? Look at GTA. It's constantly under attack by moralists, and all it does is bolster it's popularity. And that's a game where you shoot cops for money, in person. Paradox games are historical simulations, nobody would care.

Paradox should only feel the need to censor itself in order to be able to do business in countries. I'd like it if they were a bit freer about the Nazis and the Shoah (Americans shouldn't get censored just because Germans are, for example), but other than that, what's the problem?

But what with CK+ (which probably took it's mechanics from a submod), I'd only back a Jewish DLC if it had mechanics that mods can't represent.

 

[unmerged(656159)]

Aside from Khazaria, etc. I think it would be interesting to put the Jews in their historical context. So you could have prominent Jews at court. Could make them advisors. Scholars, merchants, travelers. And Jewish flavor events as well. You could have an option to take a loan from them if you become poor or desperate. You could also choose whether or not to even let them in your country in the first place. Or you could be like William the Conqueror and actually bring them with you.

This is basically the way of it. A "Judaism DLC" would be a small chance for courtiers to appear, and a set of events. Since minority religions are not modelled, Judaism wouldn't really be the province(majority) religion anywhere(?), and at best there would be a couple of isolated leaders. No need for playability then, no need for special mechanics and it can be folded into a more general (and likely) courtiers DLC. That makes it more likely to be actually done.

 

[unmerged(48397)]

The main challenge, mechanics-wise would seem to be how to include the Jewish religion in a way that doesn't make it a proselytizing religion, which it wasn't and isn't. With the pagan religions, there is a clear a-historical, alternate history-choice to reform paganism, but Judaism is already set. If you included Judaism, you should either not be able to proselytize, and/OR have massive penalties to conversion like these:

1. Only Levantine culture counties can be converted to Judaism.
2. The option to use a courtier to convert one's heir, would not be possible with a Jewish courtier if one's character is non-Jewish.
3. Conversion outside the Levantine region is absolutely impossible.
4. However, minor bonuses to convert Levantines in the historical Judaean/Israel region.

Imo, this could be the mechanics that would seem fitting in a hypothetical Jewish DLC.

Also, in regards to how you actually make Jewish characters in regards to ethnicity versus religion. Have all Jewish courtiers be Levantine (it's the in-game culture that comes closest - similar to how Somalians aren't really Ethiopians), except for Khazars and the Ethiopian Falashas. Those two cultures are not able to convert non-Levantines, either.

So, I think that covers all the mechanics. And I've actually asked in a previous thread for the official post why there was no Jews, and no, no one has ever posted or claimed it was for any historical or "racially sensitive reasons".

 

[anomanderus]

The main challenge, mechanics-wise would seem to be how to include the Jewish religion in a way that doesn't make it a proselytizing religion, which it wasn't and isn't. With the pagan religions, there is a clear a-historical, alternate history-choice to reform paganism, but Judaism is already set. If you included Judaism, you should either not be able to proselytize, and/OR have massive penalties to conversion like these:

1. Only Levantine culture counties can be converted to Judaism.
2. The option to use a courtier to convert one's heir, would not be possible with a Jewish courtier if one's character is non-Jewish.
3. Conversion outside the Levantine region is absolutely impossible.
4. However, minor bonuses to convert Levantines in the historical Judaean/Israel region.

Imo, this could be the mechanics that would seem fitting in a hypothetical Jewish DLC.

Also, in regards to how you actually make Jewish characters in regards to ethnicity versus religion. Have all Jewish courtiers be Levantine (it's the in-game culture that comes closest - similar to how Somalians aren't really Ethiopians), except for Khazars and the Ethiopian Falashas. Those two cultures are not able to convert non-Levantines, either.

So, I think that covers all the mechanics. And I've actually asked in a previous thread for the official post why there was no Jews, and no, no one has ever posted or claimed it was for any historical or "racially sensitive reasons".

Zoroastrianism is also a non-proselytizing faith.

 

[EvilSoeren]

Who said that? Unfortunately anti-Semitism is widespread and not confined to the far-right, much more prevalent on the left under the guise of "anti-Zionism".
But back on topic I don't see any reason why Jews shouldn't be represented with the Khazars and Semien. Just add them as a generic unplayable religion like Zoroastrianism was if you don't want to flesh them out.

Under the guise? It's the proper term since most Semites are not Jews.

Edit: Not the proper but more correct ;P

 

[unmerged(48397)]

Zoroastrianism is also a non-proselytizing faith.

50% true. The Parsis of India are non-proselytizing, but the Iranian Zoroastrians largely do believe in proselytizing (though they cannot obviously practise this within Iran, itself).

 

[nyah]

Millions of people were killed and forcefully expelled in similar circumstances during the middle ages, I don't know why some have the idea that Jews are some ultra-sensitive people who need to be mollycoddled.
I don't think pogroms or Jewish minority populations need to be implemented, they don't fit it with CK2 mechanics and are unimportant to the game.

Very true. I'm not sure that the problems lie with the sensitivity of individuals over the issue, but with the fact that there are legal implications with the depiction of the systematic murder of Jews sanctioned by the ruling classes, ie a pogrom. In many countries in Europe, in particular Germany, there are strong laws against hate speech and the encouragement of violence. It may be possible that a game which allows the player to expel Jews from his land is encouraging, or at least normalising, those actions is viewed as encouraging violence against Jews and as such would fall foul of the law. Considering a large part of CK2 is religious conversion and expansion I don't see how Jewish people could be properly implemented without allowing such actions at least to some extent.

It is these legal issues which make paradox wary about depicting Jews in this game, and why these threads get shut down. Nothing to do with fear of offending people, just fear of jail or having their games banned from a large part of Europe.

To be honest I don't know why this needs saying or people keep asking for an official comment on it.

 

[Grubnessul]

Civilization 4 & 5 allowed a Jewish religion and even wiping out entire Jewish cities with nuclear bombs, so I don't think it's really the issue.

The question is: would it really add something? Religion of the general population is the majority. Some courtiers would be possible, but what would those add? I doubt many kings had Jewish courtires around. So we've the Jewish bankers, not sure what that would add.