Jewish DLC

[Lorehead]

Huh? Israel’s been in Victoria 2 since patch 1.2. The region where it’s located was also renamed Palestine, which is what everyone, including the Zionists, called it during the time period of the game.

There are also Jews and Jewish states in EU: Rome and Crusader Kings 1. Individual Jews even appear in Hearts of Iron, such as Albert Einstein, although the Holocaust does not. I don’t believe the jugglers are ever stated to be Jewish. (Their name mentions Jerusalem, and for much of the time period of the game, the Christian rulers of Jerusalem permitted few if any Jews to live there.)

 

[AvihooI]

Huh? Israel’s been in Victoria 2 since patch 1.2. The region where it’s located was also renamed Palestine, which is what everyone, including the Zionists, called it during the time period of the game.

There are also Jews and Jewish states in EU: Rome and Crusader Kings 1. Individual Jews even appear in Hearts of Iron, such as Albert Einstein, although the Holocaust does not. I don’t believe the jugglers are ever stated to be Jewish. (Their name mentions Jerusalem, and for much of the time period of the game, the Christian rulers of Jerusalem permitted few if any Jews to live there.)

You chose to focus on the negligible points I brought, which isn't what I intended. The fact there WERE Jews in CK1 only makes you wonder, why not in CK2?

I can understand that PI is a European company and as such fulfills the demands of European gamers - but it has other fans from other locations as well. Seriously, what needs to be done to prove that such content is worthy of development? You've already seen much support in this thread for the idea. It's just very odd to shut the whole thing down and say "there'll be no Jews included in the game - ever"... but I really want to know why. I have a great feeling that this is politically motivated (yet no one representing PI would ever admit it), and if that is the case, I find it extremely dubious and infuriating.

 

[Kyoumen]

It's just very odd to shut the whole thing down and say "there'll be no Jews included in the game - ever"... but I really want to know why.

Here's why: they didn't say that, as has been shown multiple times in this thread if you'd bothered to read it.

Please stick to the actual topic of this thread, which is "If there is to be a Jewish DLC, what would be in it?", not "Should there be a Jewish DLC?" or conspiracy theories about Paradox that you can't get your facts straight on (Israel has never been taken out of Victoria II, and there is not even a Palestine in the game, let alone one replacing Israel).

 

[AvihooI]

Here's why: they didn't say that, as has been shown multiple times in this thread if you'd bothered to read it.

Please stick to the actual topic of this thread, which is "If there is to be a Jewish DLC, what would be in it?", not "Should there be a Jewish DLC?" or conspiracy theories about Paradox that you can't get your facts straight on (Israel has never been taken out of Victoria II, and there is not even a Palestine in the game, let alone one replacing Israel).

I've already elaborated what it should be. I've read the so called "explanations" in the thread and I don't buy them, which is why I stress on it.
Also, I don't appreciate your tone - you're in no position to tell me what to stick to or say.

 

[Aardvark Bellay]

........It's just very odd to shut the whole thing down and say "there'll be no Jews included in the game - ever"... but I really want to know why. I have a great feeling that this is politically motivated (yet no one representing PI would ever admit it), and if that is the case, I find it extremely dubious and infuriating.

You're not looking for an explanation, you're looking for a reconfirmation of your preconceptions instead of sticking to the OP and idea of a DLC.
How about being constructive than trying to get this thread closed as well....in my opinion.
Thank you

PS: The last statement regarding this topic wasn't 'never' rather 'never say never'.

 

[Rubidium]

Maybe I'm souding repetitive, but the arguments that judaism as a religion is irrelevant to the game is a bit frail: there are jewish characters (Menasseh of Khazaria, wifes of sassanid emperors) in-game simply labeled as orthodox christians; at least for completism there should be a jewish religion with no other feature besides a little six pointed star.

Which wives of Sassanid Emperors were Jewish? I haven't been through the whole dynastic tree, but the only wife I remember was Miriam, who is properly an Orthodox Christian (as expected from the daughter of the Byzantine Emperor). Not criticizing you, just curious and too lazy to go through the dynastic tree.

 

[gmellos]

And we play as the nobility and the middle class is in the provinces (random mayors of cities). So the Khazars are a good exemple of dynastic Jews.

If that is the case then why not make the Khazar Ghagan Jewish?

 

[Jaxck]

I like the idea of Jewish communities having their own holding types (one for each Town, City, Bishopric) with uniquely available buildings and bonuses. If you happen to have Jewish vassals (or if you are playing as a Jew), special event trees will come up. It makes total sense within the framework of CKII for there to be tension between Christians and Jews (especially in historically accurate regions such as Jerusalem and Germany), but at the same time having Jews in your realm provides some unique benefit via their unique holding types (perhaps they have buildings which make them especially good advisors or teachers, something which hasn't really been explored). Playable Jews would involve adding mechanics for inland republics as well as mechanics for playing as Theocracies, both of which are likely additions to the game.

I really don't understand the "controversial" aspect of allowing a player to kill Jews in a video game. You can already perform digital genocide in the existing game of far more persecuted groups (especially in Eastern Europe). One of Paradox's other series of titles allows you to play as Hitler, I don't see why adding Jews to CKII is any less "controversial". I find it really upsetting that people are unwilling to allow historical accuracy in video games in favour of idiotic notions of political correctness.

 

[VolitionNewlove]

Which wives of Sassanid Emperors were Jewish? I haven't been through the whole dynastic tree, but the only wife I remember was Miriam, who is properly an Orthodox Christian (as expected from the daughter of the Byzantine Emperor). Not criticizing you, just curious and too lazy to go through the dynastic tree.

Queen Shushandukht, wife of Yazdegerd I 'Izdekerti.'

 

[smeggy]

I have a great feeling that this is politically motivated (yet no one representing PI would ever admit it), and if that is the case, I find it extremely dubious and infuriating. Also, I don't appreciate your tone - you're in no position to tell me what to stick to or say.

I normally try to put in some effort in my post, either to inform, to troll or just to boringly discuss, but this is just worth 3 letters: LOL.

PS I'd love to see our non complaining Jew frends in game, but there're so many others I also miss.

 

[Atalvyr]

Why do I get the impression that if they do go ahead and implement Judaism, we will be seeing the same arguments of antisemitism from the same people, directed towards anyone asking for a nerf of any kind to this specific religion? At least the people lobbying for more powah to the slav/romuva religion do so without claiming persecution by the game developers.

I'm positively surprised by the amount of constructive people in this thread though, even if we all know that it is pretty unlikely that PDox will do an entire in-game 'mechanic' with buildings and all, if they do choose to do anything at all. Keep up the class act!

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

Also, I don't appreciate your tone - you're in no position to tell me what to stick to or say.

Well I am, so please stick to the subject and don't start accusing the developers of this game of lying, since that is what you do seem to imply with your posts !

 

[yourworstnightm]

No I refuse to excuse you. This is a game about nobles, not filthy dirt-eating peasants and the liege lord of Khazaria was Jewish. Therefore it makes sense to make the liege lord of Khazaria Jewish.

The ruling dynasty should be Jewish, but the provinces and some of the vassals should be Tengri, and it should reflect Khazaria quite good.

 

[AvihooI]

Well I am, so please stick to the subject and don't start accusing the developers of this game of lying, since that is what you do seem to imply with your posts !

I didn't accuse the developers of lying... I accused them, if anything, of being politically correct. It just seems that whatever I say will be seen as a problem. As I said earlier, I've already introduced what I believe should be in such DLC, and I've already read what PI has to say about Jews being part of the game. However, you cannot just shut me up because you don't like my opinion... even if I am wrong.

Also, why do you have to antagonize me and favour someone who's clearly not known or seen as a moderator of this forum? Where he or she has clearly offended me by telling me what to say and what to think and accuse me of coming up with conspiracy theories? All I wanted was a fair audience to concerns which I find worthy of address, that's all... you can agree, you can disagree - but why treat me like a pariah? I've always been kind to other members of this forum (and generally people elsewhere) and I don't believe I should be treated this way, and on top of it, have moderators backing up such treatment.

That's all, I am not going to reply to this thread anymore, since clearly free speech isn't allowed.

 

[Rubidium]

Queen Shushandukht, wife of Yazdegerd I 'Izdekerti.'

Thanks

 

[stern]

You're right Rubidium, I'm seeing the history tab now and there is only Mariam there.
I thought there were more sassanid wifes... :sad:

Also, why people are still discussing why there aren't jews in the game? The thread isn't about this, but about ideas on how to implement this ethnicity/culture/religion. Accusing PDS of having intentions they actually never expressed to have is very counter-productive.

Anyway, I was reading about the Kalonymos family, about the german hassidic pietist movement post 9th century, Abraham Abulafia and etc...

I thought that jewish characters could gain piety by improving their learning stat (and the learning of the province/realm), but they could always incurr in the risk of becoming heretics if improving their learning too much, like becoming messianic prophets obcessed with Kabbalah and mysticism. So the player giving refugee to a jewish community in a province- by permitting jews to create a grand yeshiva holding in Mainz for example- would need to deal with the emergence of such a jewish heretic and the negative reactions he would provoke in the christian world.
Also jewish rabbis could be able to educate and be educated by other jewish rabbis until old age, simulating the system of yeshiva.

 

[MartinSWE]

I really don't understand the "controversial" aspect of allowing a player to kill Jews in a video game. You can already perform digital genocide in the existing game of far more persecuted groups (especially in Eastern Europe). One of Paradox's other series of titles allows you to play as Hitler, I don't see why adding Jews to CKII is any less "controversial". I find it really upsetting that people are unwilling to allow historical accuracy in video games in favour of idiotic notions of political correctness.

You have to understand that playing Hitler, well it´s really playing the nation of Germany, in a WW 2 strategy game is not controversial one bit. If you could enact 'decisions' like those he did and would be able to view the results of them, even as statistics, it would be a valid point though.

 

[anomanderus]

Okay things which should be in a Jewish DLC/DLC with Judaism added if it was made:

Circumcision trait- not sure which bonuses but should give some kind of piety bonus due to it marking one as one of God's people

Jewish holdings- the ability for any ruler to use one of their holding slots to build a specific Jewish holding which would have specific Jewish buildings and would attract Jewish courtiers to that ruler's court. However to prevent spam of this holding by the AI the builder should have to hold at least a king level title, kings of Germany/Poland/France/Mesopotamia/Spanish kingdoms should likely have some kind of programming that makes those specific AI kings more likely to build the holdings. Obviously one holding in the Abbasid realm should have one of these holdings and should be the residence of the Exilarch. Also there could be events where affluent Jews seek to build holdings in your realm if you don't already have one. And of course the holdings can upgrade themselves just like any autonomous vassal on the level of a baron.

Jewish cultures- Ashkenazi northern Europeans, Sephardi southern Europeans and Mizrahi Middle Easterners, the culture of the ruler of Jewish holdings would influence which o these historic Jewish cultures the courtiers attracted to the king's court would be of

Khazars- a realm in which maybe the capital of Itil should follow Judaism with the rest of the provinces divided between Islam, Tengri and Orthodoxy as it was historically. The Khazar-cultured lords should all follow Judaism for simplicity. Possibly a Khazar-specific ability to raid due to the fact that the Khazars still acted as a steppe horde of raiders even after their conversion to Judaism. Khazars and other Jewish lords SHOULD NOT get a bonus to relations with Christians and Muslims as some posters have suggested. There is a difference between the Jewish Khazar emperor with the power to overrun Anatolia or Mesopotamia and the rabbi of a Jewish community with no power to threaten a Muslim or Christian lord. The Khazars will likely be destroyed in most scenarios when not under human control.

Piety gain- Jewish characters gain piety by increasing their learning.

Kingdom of Semien- possibly can be added in during an Africa DLC if there was one because it is in Africa. Would give a player the choice between the Khazar khan or the Semien king. Possible inclusion of Falasha culture.

Destruction of Jewish holdings- representing historical royal persecution of Jews for the sake of money. Kings often used popular anti-Jewish sentiment to steal the money of the Jewish communities. Naturally you'd recover any money you personally spent on building the holding and building it up plus bonuses representing stolen property of your ex-courtiers. Your courtiers would scatter and you would be unable to build a new Jewish holding for a long period of time, either until your death as a king or perhaps just a set period of 50-100 years. You would also run the risk of making enemies with the Pope who traditionally tried to protect Jews from persecution which would make you vulnerable to a Christian rival excommunicating you.

Rabbinical lineages- Great Rabbis emerged during this period as other posters have said and became renowned. Having one of these great Rabbis in your realm would increase the number of high-stat Jewish courtiers at your disposal and give you a relations bonus with foreign Jewish courtiers allowing you to steal high-stat Jews from rival courts.

Possible slight chance of converting- as with the Khazars who were converted by Jewish merchants there could be a slight chance for pagan rulers to convert to Judaism by event- something like "A prominent foreign merchant in your kingdom has requested an audience with you" and the audience would be about whether or not you choose to convert to Judaism.

Extra stuff that can be in those little DLCs paradox likes- faces for characters of Jewish cultures, music of the Jews.

 

[stern]

I loved all your ideas anomanderus, but doesn't the muslims also pratice male circumcision?

 

[Isaios]

I loved all your ideas anomanderus, but doesn't the muslims also pratice male circumcision?

Yeah they do. Biggest group as does it too.