No I refuse to excuse you. This is a game about nobles, not filthy dirt-eating peasants and the liege lord of Khazaria was Jewish. Therefore it makes sense to make the liege lord of Khazaria Jewish.
Jewish DLC
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No I refuse to excuse you. This is a game about nobles, not filthy dirt-eating peasants and the liege lord of Khazaria was Jewish. Therefore it makes sense to make the liege lord of Khazaria Jewish.
Well, on the bright side, we got at least to ten pages without getting a thread locked, so that might be a record for this topic. Doesn't look like we'll get much further, but while the thread's still open, I thought of a way to represent the 'Jewish Quarter' idea for holdings.
- Any city holding could have a 'Jewish Quarter' building, with some economic benefit. Perhaps a greater benefit the more there are in the realm (dunno if that can be implemented). Alternative, any city holding that is governed by a Jewish mayor (in order to make it more difficult to spam this), though you'd have to make it reasonably possible for a Jew to become mayor. Also possible that, if the ruler isn't Jewish, the Quarter gives them a minor piety penalty, depending on how we're interpreting in-game piety (given that the Norse get piety for human sacrifices, I think its safe to define piety as 'making your religious leaders happy,' which would fit).
And, if its not too controversial, zealous rulers might have an occasional event where they sack the quarter, similar to how trade posts get beat up on from time to time.
- Any city holding could have a 'Jewish Quarter' building, with some economic benefit. Perhaps a greater benefit the more there are in the realm (dunno if that can be implemented). Alternative, any city holding that is governed by a Jewish mayor (in order to make it more difficult to spam this), though you'd have to make it reasonably possible for a Jew to become mayor. Also possible that, if the ruler isn't Jewish, the Quarter gives them a minor piety penalty, depending on how we're interpreting in-game piety (given that the Norse get piety for human sacrifices, I think its safe to define piety as 'making your religious leaders happy,' which would fit).
And, if its not too controversial, zealous rulers might have an occasional event where they sack the quarter, similar to how trade posts get beat up on from time to time.
I'm not sure it would be best to simply give economic bonuses inherently to Jews. Jews were used as moneylenders as a part of religious loopholing by the other Abrahamic religions, which don't really have relevance to the others. The merchants which convinced the Khazars to convert were the Radhanites, a term used for a Jewish merchant class in the Dark Ages, it is unclear whether they were a family or a guild, or simply a generic term of Jewish merchants, who traded with both Europe and China. This could possibly mean a Radhanite Guild building could work instead, though they ended up dissolving when the Khazars did, before the 1066 start.
Several mods have shown that Jewish courtiers can add a lot of detail to the game, even with current mechanics. Though, I doubt PI will add Pogroms. Doomdark, though, said 'not this time', which is newer than King's post. Still, I doubt it will happen without a lot of community support. Even then, it would probably be a side project.
The religion head (at least for a "restorationist Judaism") would probably be the restored high priest, not a prophet or anything like that.
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Maybe I'm souding repetitive, but the arguments that judaism as a religion is irrelevant to the game is a bit frail: there are jewish characters (Menasseh of Khazaria, wifes of sassanid emperors) in-game simply labeled as orthodox christians; at least for completism there should be a jewish religion with no other feature besides a little six pointed star.
Ruling land also isn't as important anymore, since the republics and old gods a character can have an economic and cultural impact on the game without a holding, example: the head of the nestorian church.
As again, I agree with many others, judaism by itself isn't enough for a single DLC and should come together with others religions.
In my opinion jews should be:
-An autonomous religion tied to certain holdings like the Hashinshins have their mosques, present in either Córdoba, Bagdah, Troyes, Köln, Mainz, Safed, Tiberias, Sura, Jerusalem or Cairo
-These holdings should be ruled by hereditary titles of Grand Rabbis/Heads of the Exile/Nasirs, examples of such religious heads would be Rashi (1070), Maimonides (1200), Ramban (1200), Gershom ben Judah (1100), Sadia Gaon (900) and Abulafia (1200), it should be noted that exiled heads of Iraq and Jerusalem traced their lineages back to David
-These holdings could give cultural or economic boosts to the county or realm, and provide courtiers, but giving negative opinion with your vassals and liege for giving shelter to infidels/heretics
-The holdings could be expelled deliberately by holy wars or with certain events as the iberian Reconquista, fights with the iraqian Califa, crusades, etc; i.e. whenever the religious authority of the realm majority is rising
-The moral authority and collective religious decisions could be defined by a sanherdin, a council, in the same way orthodoxs have an organization of diverse heads, some of them autonomous
-Piety could be gained by jews with learning and learning related activities and traits, and by marrying with kings/nobles like they did in Andalus and Persia
-A goal could be to revive the original Israelite sanhedrin
-Jews could be able to be elected as mayors by republics and/or appears as random holdings (ghetos) in some republican provinces
I think Khazars and ethipians should be secondary to all this.
Ruling land also isn't as important anymore, since the republics and old gods a character can have an economic and cultural impact on the game without a holding, example: the head of the nestorian church.
As again, I agree with many others, judaism by itself isn't enough for a single DLC and should come together with others religions.
In my opinion jews should be:
-An autonomous religion tied to certain holdings like the Hashinshins have their mosques, present in either Córdoba, Bagdah, Troyes, Köln, Mainz, Safed, Tiberias, Sura, Jerusalem or Cairo
-These holdings should be ruled by hereditary titles of Grand Rabbis/Heads of the Exile/Nasirs, examples of such religious heads would be Rashi (1070), Maimonides (1200), Ramban (1200), Gershom ben Judah (1100), Sadia Gaon (900) and Abulafia (1200), it should be noted that exiled heads of Iraq and Jerusalem traced their lineages back to David
-These holdings could give cultural or economic boosts to the county or realm, and provide courtiers, but giving negative opinion with your vassals and liege for giving shelter to infidels/heretics
-The holdings could be expelled deliberately by holy wars or with certain events as the iberian Reconquista, fights with the iraqian Califa, crusades, etc; i.e. whenever the religious authority of the realm majority is rising
-The moral authority and collective religious decisions could be defined by a sanherdin, a council, in the same way orthodoxs have an organization of diverse heads, some of them autonomous
-Piety could be gained by jews with learning and learning related activities and traits, and by marrying with kings/nobles like they did in Andalus and Persia
-A goal could be to revive the original Israelite sanhedrin
-Jews could be able to be elected as mayors by republics and/or appears as random holdings (ghetos) in some republican provinces
I think Khazars and ethipians should be secondary to all this.
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I mentioned that in reply to your terminology, not about your feelings about peasantry (or their religious identity).
Also, saying he was 'a Jew' is not the same as saying he's 'Jewish'. Big difference there.
What heresies could there be? They wouldn't need to be existing at all start dates, but they would certainly need to be contemporary to the era.
No need to go that far in time.
Examples of jewish "heresies": sabbateanism (1600), karaism (800) and abulafianism (1200).
edit: apparently there were a bunch of jewish revolts, messianism and heretics entering in conflicts with the Caliph of Bagdah during 700~800. This could be certainly used in-game as a source of tension between muslims and jews in the region.
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Well it really depends on how we are imaginging this medieval Judaism and Khazar Judaism to be. In 867, you could have Phariseean Judaism or early Rabbinic Judaism. I don't know enough to really describe it or say which woud be the heresy and which is the mainstream.
Karaists and Abulafianists seem like the best choices for heresies, from what I can see.
Good points!
I'm inclined to use the Trade Post and Family Seat (?) mechanics. Essentially spreading by building networks of Trade Posts, with attendant risks. The Rabbi (Rabbinic?) Dynasties fit perfectly with the current mechanics anyway. Should be possible to cobble this together from the pieces already in the game.
Religious Authority seems a bit difficult. Might be possible to just set it at base 90. Bit of a cop-out perhaps, but it'd work
Frankly, the Republic mechanics could work very well, just based on cultural/religious things rather'n economics.
There's so much more that a Jewish DLC could add than random courtiers, Khazar khagans, or pogroms. The Jewish Radhanites dominated overland trade during the early Middle Ages. They would add an entire new layer to the game, but one already partially put in place, the merchant republic system. They could be split into guilds and clans, and creatrade posts on overland provinces, as the merchant republics do the same on coastal provinces.
In the 11th century, the Radhanites started to decline. But that would be the time when most Jewish communities in Europe spring up, and other aspects of the DLC become important. Radhanites would be replaced by European and Arab/Persian trade guilds at a 1066 start, and European and Arab/Persian trade guilds could gradually pop up from an 867 start (though from an 867 start, who says the Radhanites will necessarily fade away?)
While the Jewish DLC could also add religious minorities, represented by modifiers or sliders. These would have significant effects on revolt risk, events, and levy availability, and would make ruling on the borders of religions more realistic.
And of course there are the obvious Jewish features like Khazars being properly represented, really educated courtiers to hire as your steward, etc.
Pogroms can be represented in a not as offensive way. Pogroms would be rebellions that damage buildings, so kings are obligated to prevent or defeat them. Meanwhile, a ruler can't incite a pogrom, only angry mobs start it.
In the 11th century, the Radhanites started to decline. But that would be the time when most Jewish communities in Europe spring up, and other aspects of the DLC become important. Radhanites would be replaced by European and Arab/Persian trade guilds at a 1066 start, and European and Arab/Persian trade guilds could gradually pop up from an 867 start (though from an 867 start, who says the Radhanites will necessarily fade away?)
While the Jewish DLC could also add religious minorities, represented by modifiers or sliders. These would have significant effects on revolt risk, events, and levy availability, and would make ruling on the borders of religions more realistic.
And of course there are the obvious Jewish features like Khazars being properly represented, really educated courtiers to hire as your steward, etc.
Pogroms can be represented in a not as offensive way. Pogroms would be rebellions that damage buildings, so kings are obligated to prevent or defeat them. Meanwhile, a ruler can't incite a pogrom, only angry mobs start it.
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But we have already stated that this game is about nobles not peasants. And the commoners were of multiple faiths.
And we play as the nobility and the middle class is in the provinces (random mayors of cities). So the Khazars are a good exemple of dynastic Jews.
It appears Paradox isnt including Jews for some reason. My guess (was there a clear official explanation?) is thats because of the overall "touchyness" of the whole topic. You can like it or not, but it is what it is.
No. They already speaked about the topic. The reason was, that they don't add a own religion for courties (would be mostly right in the 1066 start date). Another reason is, that they don't want to add another religion without special flavour. Paradox isn't against Jews in there games. Look at Victoria II, there were Jews and Israel.
Seriously, why are we throwing this thread under the bus?
Come to think of it, you have all sorts of ancient and extinct civilizations and peoples represented in computer games - usually far less important and influential than Jews. Even from a historical point of view, Jews had a love-hate relationship with European and Muslim rulers throughout the entire middle-ages.
When I look at other historical games such as the Age of Empires franchise, Civilization (at some point, Judaism was represented as a religion, but not a civ - and it had no real mechanics), etc... they, even by some weird neglect fail to include Jews. I mean, we're talking about a group of people that's calling itself the same thing for at least 3500 years, and you're telling me that that isn't enough to be placed in a computer game? What kind of message does that send to young gamers who actually learn true history from those computer games?
I mean, the only mention of Jews in CK2 is a Summer Fair's related event of Jewish jesters who, by the way, suck and can be beheaded (someone here said something about being worried about pogroms, here's your answer).
Even when I think of it, Victora II had Jews, but it was represented as a denomination of Islam for mechanics (which is ridiculous) - and Israel was at some point replaced with Palestine cores.
So no, I think there are other motivations to disenfranchise Jewish elements from such computer games - and it has to be of some form of social-political nature. I know you don't like to hear this, but it's definitely there.
As a customer and a fan (just have a bunch of Paradox games), I'd really like a serious and honest address to those concerns I brought. I mean for fairness, Paradox developed a DLC where native-Americans can invade Europe in a totally hypothetical scenario, and you're telling me real and true and possible scenarios such as Jews being represented in medieval government or even be rulers on their own right cannot be included in the game?
I for the record, bought all of CK2 DLCs, not because I find all of them particularly interesting to me, but because I truly like the game and wish to support it. I am sure there are at least a small percentage of CK2 fans who share those same thought as me. So please, do develop that Jewish DLC - and if you can't bring yourself to do it, at least have the deceny to say why, even if we're not going to like the answer.
Come to think of it, you have all sorts of ancient and extinct civilizations and peoples represented in computer games - usually far less important and influential than Jews. Even from a historical point of view, Jews had a love-hate relationship with European and Muslim rulers throughout the entire middle-ages.
When I look at other historical games such as the Age of Empires franchise, Civilization (at some point, Judaism was represented as a religion, but not a civ - and it had no real mechanics), etc... they, even by some weird neglect fail to include Jews. I mean, we're talking about a group of people that's calling itself the same thing for at least 3500 years, and you're telling me that that isn't enough to be placed in a computer game? What kind of message does that send to young gamers who actually learn true history from those computer games?
I mean, the only mention of Jews in CK2 is a Summer Fair's related event of Jewish jesters who, by the way, suck and can be beheaded (someone here said something about being worried about pogroms, here's your answer).
Even when I think of it, Victora II had Jews, but it was represented as a denomination of Islam for mechanics (which is ridiculous) - and Israel was at some point replaced with Palestine cores.
So no, I think there are other motivations to disenfranchise Jewish elements from such computer games - and it has to be of some form of social-political nature. I know you don't like to hear this, but it's definitely there.
As a customer and a fan (just have a bunch of Paradox games), I'd really like a serious and honest address to those concerns I brought. I mean for fairness, Paradox developed a DLC where native-Americans can invade Europe in a totally hypothetical scenario, and you're telling me real and true and possible scenarios such as Jews being represented in medieval government or even be rulers on their own right cannot be included in the game?
I for the record, bought all of CK2 DLCs, not because I find all of them particularly interesting to me, but because I truly like the game and wish to support it. I am sure there are at least a small percentage of CK2 fans who share those same thought as me. So please, do develop that Jewish DLC - and if you can't bring yourself to do it, at least have the deceny to say why, even if we're not going to like the answer.