IMO it would be fun to play as a Jewish ruler, since there are so few of them. Maybe start in Jerusalem or Spain where there were a larger number of them around 1000 AD.
Thoughts?
Thoughts?
Jewish DLC
- Thread starter Khezef
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If I recall correctly, I believe it has been said that Judaism will never be officially represented in any form in CK2, through either DLC or patches.
I apologise for my below post.
I'd been unable to find any such source for this, and I apologise for any offence taken to any developers or moderator. It was not in my intention to cause any harm, I merely was unable to find any posts beyond other forumite's speculations.
I'd been unable to find any such source for this, and I apologise for any offence taken to any developers or moderator. It was not in my intention to cause any harm, I merely was unable to find any posts beyond other forumite's speculations.
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I'm sorry for my below post.
I'd been unable to find any such source for this, and I apologise for any offence taken to any developers or moderator. It was not in my intention to cause any harm, I merely was unable to find any posts beyond other forumite's speculations.
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say you believe a dev said that, you said it as if it were a hard fact. a dev said killing off or exiling jews was controversial not adding them to the game. at least, as far as I'm aware, and I'm on these forums nearly every day.
Instead of complaining that they're not included, which will just get the thread closed quickly, why not try to brainstorm how they could mechanically fit into the game, and possibly encourage the creation of a later DLC?
Now, two Jewish countries on the map can be added, which is a good thing, but the true issue here is how to mechanically represent Jewish courtiers elsewhere and both make it a fun game enhancement and also not be completely offensive. Eunuchs provide some good inspiration there, where randomly generated Jewish courtiers, who generally have good diplomacy, intrigue and learning stats due to education, offer their services (as a council member, not just showing up in your court). Accepting them gives you a good council member and gives them a powerful boost in loyalty to the ruler (overcoming any culture/religion penalties), but can result in later events where other court members (particularly ones with "zealous") demand their removal. It probably also gives a (small) penalty to piety.
Perhaps a ruler who has generally treated Jews well and pushed down the less tolerant members of the court would also get some other positive effects - Jewish tutors/teachers that give a boost to tech speed? Some monetary loans to help construct buildings, perhaps? Perhaps in the long run you can actually promote a haven for Jews (i.e., a barony which somehow ties into them) for bigger bonuses and a steady supply of educated courtiers.
I'd like to tie this into the religious acceptance tech somehow, possibly even make it a tech branch worth investing in. I'm not super familiar with the history in Spain at this point, but I know Jews are very strongly tied into the history there with both sides, so perhaps someone with more information can think of other ways they can tie into the main game?
Now, two Jewish countries on the map can be added, which is a good thing, but the true issue here is how to mechanically represent Jewish courtiers elsewhere and both make it a fun game enhancement and also not be completely offensive. Eunuchs provide some good inspiration there, where randomly generated Jewish courtiers, who generally have good diplomacy, intrigue and learning stats due to education, offer their services (as a council member, not just showing up in your court). Accepting them gives you a good council member and gives them a powerful boost in loyalty to the ruler (overcoming any culture/religion penalties), but can result in later events where other court members (particularly ones with "zealous") demand their removal. It probably also gives a (small) penalty to piety.
Perhaps a ruler who has generally treated Jews well and pushed down the less tolerant members of the court would also get some other positive effects - Jewish tutors/teachers that give a boost to tech speed? Some monetary loans to help construct buildings, perhaps? Perhaps in the long run you can actually promote a haven for Jews (i.e., a barony which somehow ties into them) for bigger bonuses and a steady supply of educated courtiers.
I'd like to tie this into the religious acceptance tech somehow, possibly even make it a tech branch worth investing in. I'm not super familiar with the history in Spain at this point, but I know Jews are very strongly tied into the history there with both sides, so perhaps someone with more information can think of other ways they can tie into the main game?
Every time this topic is discussed it ends up with the threads getting closed and yet new threads keeps popping up ...
I don´t really want to argument here but my guess is that it would be hard to reproduce the remarkable sucess of Judaism without making it ahistorically strong. In my opinion this is one of the true wonders in human history when one considers that jews have been harassed or even persecuted most of the time and still have a strong Foundation today.
Also there would be the issue that Paradox would risk getting into the whole 'antisemitism'-deal which seems to happen most of the time. If they make jews and judaism historically 'weak' they would be crushed and every jew would be gone from the game within just a few years. Also we have the issue that there would be hard to find even a single county with a jewish majority at any given time during the CK II timeline.
If Paradox on the other hand makes a HUGE effort to change how the entire game works so that judaism/jews would have a possibility to well ... survive, many players including myself would wonder why all that effort would be put into a minor religion that had little impact on any part of the world during the CK II timeline. This is especially true when one considers how much major content that NEEDS to be put into the game ... like a Theocracy DLC, a 'fleshed out Papacy/Holy Roman Empire DLC to name a few.
With this post I have no intention of 'hurting anyone' and hope I haven´t violated any forum rules.
I don´t really want to argument here but my guess is that it would be hard to reproduce the remarkable sucess of Judaism without making it ahistorically strong. In my opinion this is one of the true wonders in human history when one considers that jews have been harassed or even persecuted most of the time and still have a strong Foundation today.
Also there would be the issue that Paradox would risk getting into the whole 'antisemitism'-deal which seems to happen most of the time. If they make jews and judaism historically 'weak' they would be crushed and every jew would be gone from the game within just a few years. Also we have the issue that there would be hard to find even a single county with a jewish majority at any given time during the CK II timeline.
If Paradox on the other hand makes a HUGE effort to change how the entire game works so that judaism/jews would have a possibility to well ... survive, many players including myself would wonder why all that effort would be put into a minor religion that had little impact on any part of the world during the CK II timeline. This is especially true when one considers how much major content that NEEDS to be put into the game ... like a Theocracy DLC, a 'fleshed out Papacy/Holy Roman Empire DLC to name a few.
With this post I have no intention of 'hurting anyone' and hope I haven´t violated any forum rules.
These threads are usually made by new members, who are joining at a steady rate. As long as people are wanting them to at least be included in the game, or an automatic script in the forum instantly removes threads including the word 'Jewish,' these threads are going to continue.
Repeated threads about the topic from different people indicate that there is a demand for Judaism to be included and fleshed out in the game, same principle as people repeatedly asking about Zoroastrianism (which was, to be honest, considerably less important in the CKII timeframe). Again, I think it would be good if constructive discussion on the topic happened rather than just fruitless speculation on why they aren't already in the game.
Constructive criticism to what end though? You said yourself that this isn't a new issue, so what is the point of discussing the inclusion of Judaism if Paradox has no intention of adding the religion to CK2? If they haven't changed their mind after all the other threads complaining about the lack of Jews, I don't really see the point in further discussion. They had their chance with TOG to add Jewish leaders with the Khazars but they clearly chose not to despite demand, so this all seems like beating a dead horse to me.:glare:
TS, if you really want to play as a Jewish character your best (and only bet ATM) are mods. AFAIK The Prince and the Thane mod has Jewish communities, so give it a whirl
No, you are making things up. Which is actually quite reprehensible.
The two dev quotes on the matter are here:
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...nouncement-that-explained-why-no-Jews-in-CKII
TLDR: not enough rulers.
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Constructive criticism to what end though? You said yourself that this isn't a new issue, so what is the point of discussing the inclusion of Judaism if Paradox has no intention of adding the religion to CK2? If they haven't changed their mind after all the other threads complaining about the lack of Jews, I don't really see the point in further discussion. They had their chance with TOG to add Jewish leaders with the Khazars but they clearly chose not to despite demand, so this all seems like beating a dead horse to me.:glare:
TS, if you really want to play as a Jewish character your best (and only bet ATM) are mods. AFAIK The Prince and the Thane mod has Jewish communities, so give it a whirl
95% of people don't use mods, though, as revealed a few months back.
It was not my intention to make anything up. It simply is just too hard to find the quotes, with the flood of posts, and the site going down every few minutes. Do not try to take this opportunity to call me reprehensible, and accuse me of trying to delibrately falsify information.
And there are around the same amount of Zoroastran rulers. Admittadly, there is a little less Jewish rulers, but it's hard to argue that Zoroastrians were more important in this period of time than Jews.
Khazaria and Semien would be the relevant nations, not Jerusalem and Spain. Unfortunately, Paradox has always been reluctant to include Judaism in their games.
@Talq: with the inclusion of Zoroastrians, claiming there aren't enough Jewish rulers in the time-frame is pretty weaksauce.
@Talq: with the inclusion of Zoroastrians, claiming there aren't enough Jewish rulers in the time-frame is pretty weaksauce.
1) Paradox only said they weren't adding it to The Old Gods because it'd be too much extra work on top of adding many other playable religions, and earlier that they weren't going to add Jews just so there'd be random courtiers that vanished in a generation. These aren't insurmountable obstacles.
2) The threads get closed because they descend into very heated arguments and nasty speculation as to Paradox's "real" motives, as well as groundless accusations that they deliberately keep Jews out of their games despite the fact Jews are in both Victorias, EU: Rome and Crusader Kings 1. I'm trying to steer the conversation elsewhere.
3) Even if Paradox internally decided they won't add Jews, vox populi can change their minds. It's happened before on issues great and small.
Case in point. No they have not, Jews are in at least four of their games, including a decision to create Israel in Victoria II. Please take this kind of speculation elsewhere, it will just get the thread closed.
I just checked the history tab for the persian empire and it seems some jewish wifes of sassanids kings are labeled as orthodox christian. The fuk? Also who is Mariam Arabissinos? I searched for her everywhere but there is no mention of her existence.
I think people should forget about Khazars. They were irrelevant already in ~800 and were only a tribe whom the ruling elite converted to judaism.
In the other side, if already in 1066 start date you see a bunch of zoroastrians in persian courts, with no political and feudal power, why not make the same with jews in Rhineland and Andalus? Why not make a jewish midas touched or grey eminence pop once in a while? Why not connect jews with republics and with the emerging banking system of Europe?
And we are not talking about sparse populations, jews in Venice, Andalus and Western Germany were actually very numerous, even being sometimes relevant (Charlemagne sent a jewish diplomat to Harun Al-Rashid for example) and it's ahistorical to see Köln without jews in this timeframe.
Anyway, sadly this is a polemical topic and I see many problems in implementing judaism, mainly the lack of holy sites besides Jerusalem, Tiberias and Safed, and the absolute impossibility of judaism behaving like the religions post-old gods; sephardis, ashkenazis and mizrahis doesn't fit well as schimatic versions of the same faith, and there are no religious heads... Actually the devs could use the jewish exilarch/rosh galut in Iraq, the Sanhendrin (similar to the post-temple one in Yavne) or regional grand yeshivas as models for something similar to orthodox christianism with its autocephalous patriarchs. I can very well imagine Rashi as the head of ashkenazi jews in 1060, Maimonides as the head of sephardis in Iberia and North Africa in 1170. And the jews could gain piety by improving learning.
I think people should forget about Khazars. They were irrelevant already in ~800 and were only a tribe whom the ruling elite converted to judaism.
In the other side, if already in 1066 start date you see a bunch of zoroastrians in persian courts, with no political and feudal power, why not make the same with jews in Rhineland and Andalus? Why not make a jewish midas touched or grey eminence pop once in a while? Why not connect jews with republics and with the emerging banking system of Europe?
And we are not talking about sparse populations, jews in Venice, Andalus and Western Germany were actually very numerous, even being sometimes relevant (Charlemagne sent a jewish diplomat to Harun Al-Rashid for example) and it's ahistorical to see Köln without jews in this timeframe.
Anyway, sadly this is a polemical topic and I see many problems in implementing judaism, mainly the lack of holy sites besides Jerusalem, Tiberias and Safed, and the absolute impossibility of judaism behaving like the religions post-old gods; sephardis, ashkenazis and mizrahis doesn't fit well as schimatic versions of the same faith, and there are no religious heads... Actually the devs could use the jewish exilarch/rosh galut in Iraq, the Sanhendrin (similar to the post-temple one in Yavne) or regional grand yeshivas as models for something similar to orthodox christianism with its autocephalous patriarchs. I can very well imagine Rashi as the head of ashkenazi jews in 1060, Maimonides as the head of sephardis in Iberia and North Africa in 1170. And the jews could gain piety by improving learning.
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If the reason for not implementing jews is because they weren't rulers at the time, I think they could really shine as an element related with republics where patricians doesn't own any castle or city, but have an invisible mansion being upgraded and generating manpower.
Maybe something related to moneylending and how well you treat your pet jewish community? And... some very light flavours events of pogroms, nothing much offensive?
A grand yeshiva could appear in a certain in a random western german province like Gelre or Liege, in the same way the hashinshin appears in Syria and northen Iran, and it could give technologic/culture/economic bonus?
Maybe something related to moneylending and how well you treat your pet jewish community? And... some very light flavours events of pogroms, nothing much offensive?
A grand yeshiva could appear in a certain in a random western german province like Gelre or Liege, in the same way the hashinshin appears in Syria and northen Iran, and it could give technologic/culture/economic bonus?
On the bright side: At least Paradox will have a huge free marketing if any jewish organization get mad at this. Imagine the publicty! From stormfront to haaretz, Crusader Kings 2 being discussed
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