Jewish courtiers?

[unmerged(99452)]

Hi
Does anyone know if they will implement jewish courtiers like they did in CK1?
It would be great if they did, since it would give more roleplay experience due to the fact that you would have highly skilled people employed in your court that are also heathens and therefore you must decide how to deal with them(the tolerant way or the popes way).
Each way will ofcourse have its pros and cons.

 

[KonradRichtmark]

I never saw any Jews in CK1 other than those in the two Khazar provinces by the Caspian Sea. Were they the only source of Jews in the game, or could randomly generated courtiers occasionally be Jews too?

 

[TempestDK]

well there is one jewish courtier in Barcelona ... but I think that is DVIP.

Not sure there will be any in vanilla ... but then you can always mod one in if you want

 

[KonradRichtmark]

Or, how about an event like:

Jews fleeing a pogrom are requesting the right to settle on your land.
Options:
-Welcome! (loss of piety, get moneylender building in province, get a few randomly generated Jewish courtiers)
-Christ-killers? Not on my land! (gain of piety)

 

[vertinox]

Hi
Does anyone know if they will implement jewish courtiers like they did in CK1?
It would be great if they did, since it would give more roleplay experience due to the fact that you would have highly skilled people employed in your court that are also heathens and therefore you must decide how to deal with them(the tolerant way or the popes way).
Each way will ofcourse have its pros and cons.

I think the biggest issue with Jewish courtiers is that the in the CK system, you had to have land to have children and unless you purposdley married your own daughters to Jewish courtiers, then they usualaly all died off about 1250 or so. Perhaps if certain characters were able to get married and have children on their own without land.

 

[TempestDK]

I think the biggest issue with Jewish courtiers is that the in the CK system, you had to have land to have children and unless you purposdley married your own daughters to Jewish courtiers, then they usualaly all died off about 1250 or so. Perhaps if certain characters were able to get married and have children on their own without land.

I married one of my daughters to my jewish courtier, in a CK1 Barcelona game .... and after a long life as my Marshal, I gave the jewish guy the Kingdom of Tranxonia or whatever the name is of the kingdom in modern day Morocco ... was fun.

 

[KonradRichtmark]

Something feels weird about having a Jewish marshal. Steward, though, would perfectly fit together with the ecological niche Jews occupied in medieval Europe.

Agreed that characters not part of a landed dynasty should marry and breed on their own initiative, it would reduce the need for spontaneous random character generation when a new court is opened (as unemployed people from other courts would wander to the newly opened court in hope of governmental positions). However, character spam might ensue unless some control mechanism was in place to cull excess courtiers.

 

[RedRooster81]

There were a fair number of Berber Jewish courtiers in Castille put in by DVIP. They did not last, nor do I think that they would in CK2, unless you give out titles, in order to make a sort of Jewish settlement in a newly conquered area. Many of the children converted in one of my DVIP games as Castille, and one became Pope in 1100 or so.

That said, there is a tradition in the Maghreb, Iberia, and other places for "court Jews" who used their contacts and worldly knowledge to their liege's advantage. One king of Aragon (I forget which one) attempted to fill his entire bureaucracy with Jews. But they could not be quite described as "noble." Not that you would necessary need to follow what happened historically, of course.

Then, you could have converted Jews ("conversos" in Spanish) who would retain the mark of their Jewish heritage with them as a trait. They were susceptible to investigation by the Inquisition, but some went far in royal service. Maybe someone who knows more of medieval Jewish history can comment more, maybe make up a minimod in the future if Jews are not included in vanilla CK2.

 

[RedRooster81]

Something feels weird about having a Jewish marshal. Steward, though, would perfectly fit together with the ecological niche Jews occupied in medieval Europe.

Agreed that characters not part of a landed dynasty should marry and breed on their own initiative, it would reduce the need for spontaneous random character generation when a new court is opened (as unemployed people from other courts would wander to the newly opened court in hope of governmental positions). However, character spam might ensue unless some control mechanism was in place to cull excess courtiers.

As a general principle, men seeking marriage should have something to offer, something to pass on, at least expecting to inherit something. The devs have not weighed in yet on how marriage will be handled, but King has disclosed the importance of marriage for forging alliances. And courtiers should move on quickly unless granted office and/or a barony, unless they are members of your dynasty or married to one. Some may be layabouts, content with living off the crust of your table (with traits like lazy, etc.), but most should not.

 

[ZhugeKongming]

Something feels weird about having a Jewish marshal. Steward, though, would perfectly fit together with the ecological niche Jews occupied in medieval Europe.

Agreed that characters not part of a landed dynasty should marry and breed on their own initiative, it would reduce the need for spontaneous random character generation when a new court is opened (as unemployed people from other courts would wander to the newly opened court in hope of governmental positions). However, character spam might ensue unless some control mechanism was in place to cull excess courtiers.

I don't think this is really necessary. It's better to just generate Jewish courtiers through events, with tolerant kingdoms having a very low MTTH for these events.

 

[unmerged(99452)]

Or, how about an event like:

Jews fleeing a pogrom are requesting the right to settle on your land.
Options:
-Welcome! (loss of piety, get moneylender building in province, get a few randomly generated Jewish courtiers)
-Christ-killers? Not on my land! (gain of piety)

I don't think this is really necessary. It's better to just generate Jewish courtiers through events, with tolerant kingdoms having a very low MTTH for these events.

I like both these ideas very much. The jewish courteirs dont need to be part of any long lived dynasties, they live and die, and during that time they can help you enhance your realm. After some time, when the last jew in the court is dead, another fleeing jews event will pop up thus generating a new set of jewish courteirs.

 

[King]

I like both these ideas very much. The jewish courteirs dont need to be part of any long lived dynasties, they live and die, and during that time they can help you enhance your realm. After some time, when the last jew in the court is dead, another fleeing jews event will pop up thus generating a new set of jewish courteirs.

So let me get this straight are you suggesting that Jews are a renewable resource, as opposed to Buddhists in DW?

On a more serious vain this is a rather silly thread. Courtiers are courtiers are the game will generate more as required. We are not going to go to the trouble to add an additional religion just for courtiers.

 

[KonradRichtmark]

Well, would it be an additional religion? If you're going to recycle the starting province setup of CK1, there will be two Khazar-Jewish provinces on the north coast of the Caspian Sea.

 

[Zzzzz...]

I like the idea but not the renewable Jews part. That would be soooo convenient and weird.

 

[King]

Well, would it be an additional religion? If you're going to recycle the starting province setup of CK1, there will be two Khazar-Jewish provinces on the north coast of the Caspian Sea.

There isn't

 

[unmerged(99452)]

So let me get this straight are you suggesting that Jews are a renewable resource, as opposed to Buddhists in DW?

On a more serious vain this is a rather silly thread. Courtiers are courtiers are the game will generate more as required. We are not going to go to the trouble to add an additional religion just for courtiers.

Well, so you are saying that jews didnt exist in Medieval Europe and that, if they did, had nothing to do with the establishment of the banking system and thus were not responsible for increasing the revenues of the country they occupied?
I was only suggesting adding them to the game to get a more medeival feeling and to get more roleplay abilities.

 

[unmerged(99452)]

Well, would it be an additional religion? If you're going to recycle the starting province setup of CK1, there will be two Khazar-Jewish provinces on the north coast of the Caspian Sea.

Dont forget the many jewish regions in Nubia/Aksum at that time.
The Aksumite empire(modern day Ethiopia and Nubia) was destroyed in AD 940 by a jewish queen named Yodit.

 

[KonradRichtmark]

Well, so you are saying that jews didnt exist in Medieval Europe and that, if they did, had nothing to do with the establishment of the banking system and thus were not responsible for increasing the revenues of the country they occupied?
I was only suggesting adding them to the game to get a more medeival feeling and to get more roleplay abilities.

Well, they're already in CK1 in the form of the Moneylenders building, so they'll be in implicitly in CK2 as long as that building stays. Well, it wasn't said outright that the moneylenders are Jews, but:

-Jews were the only ones allowed to do banking for a great deal of the Middle Ages.
-The moneylender is the only building which actually gives a looter a boost (rather than penalty) to piety.
-CK is a game where you get piety for killing and generally being nasty towards other religions

Draw what conclusions you want from that

 

[King]

Well, they're already in CK1 in the form of the Moneylenders building, so they'll be in implicitly in CK2 as long as that building stays. Well, it wasn't said outright that the moneylenders are Jews, but:

-Jews were the only ones allowed to do banking for a great deal of the Middle Ages.
-The moneylender is the only building which actually gives a looter a boost (rather than penalty) to piety.
-CK is a game where you get piety for killing and generally being nasty towards other religions

Draw what conclusions you want from that

There is no Money lender building in CK2 either.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

Since King has made it clear that there won't be Jewish courtiers, this thread will be closed.