Jewish communities and influence under the Diaspora

[MadDoctorScientist]

I implied this on my thread about the Knights and Scotland, but maybe it deserves its own thread.
Why is Judaism so under-represented under both Christian and Muslin nations? Unless heavily persecuted, they often ascended to positions of influence despite being second class citizens, specially with families such as the Portaleone and Rothschild, or simply the countless notable individuals such as Yosef Nasi, Spinoza, Abraham Zacuto, Sabbatai Zevi, Manoel Soeiro and the jolly old Doctor Michel de Nostradamus* that influenced heavily both their countries and the world.

I really fell there should be a better representation for Judaism under other more predominant faiths given how much they affected the communities they lived on and also and specially the more numerically significant events involving all the Jewish population of said place, the expulsion from Spain, their purge under Luther, they being "welcomed" in Polish and Ottoman lands, their settling in the Americas, having ambiguous relations with Oliver Cromwell's dictatorship, the eventual emancipation by Napoleon and de-enmacipation under the Congress of Wien, and such. Those events were not only the origin of new Jewish denominations and practices, the Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews and the Yiddish** language in particular, but they affected the whole world.

In terms of game mechanics, adding events related to Jewish (influential) minorities under other nations should be relatively easy to make, as are other similar events already in place (welcoming the Greek refugees after the fall of Constantinople, assorted nation-specific advisors, major bonus or penalties from religious/societal choices, etc.), so... why not add them?

Note: I am not really saying a way of implementing Jewish nations should be added because that is basically what custom nations is for. I am concerned about the Jews living in the Diaspora, as I mentioned. Also, I genuinely do not know much about the Romani people(s) to say if they could/should or could/should not be added.
__________________________________________________________________________________________
*I know Nostradamus' parents "converted" to Christianity before he was born, but no one questions the Jewish influences on his upbringing and later character and career.

**The old issue of language vs. culture may apply, depending on other mechanics.

 

[Infocalypse]

Honestly, in Crusader Kings this is a legitimate issue. Europa Universalis only ever considers the majority culture in a province. For Judaism, this is almost never true. I wouldn't mind a few flavor results, but all in all, this would not make a difference to the game at all. Your proposal would mean that there would have to be a new mechanic to make countries decide on how they want to treat their Jewish minority for events like Byzantine Refugies to make sense within the mechanics, and I assume that this is a hot iron Paradox does not even want to touch. If they do, how about Sinti and Roma? That rabbit hole is more problematic than anything.

 

[Tricubus]

You will have to wait for there to be POPs in EU5 for any representation of the Ashkenazi and Sephardic diaspora throughout Europe and the Middle East.

 

[MadDoctorScientist]

Your proposal would mean that there would have to be a new mechanic to make countries decide on how they want to treat their Jewish minority for events like Byzantine Refugies to make sense within the mechanics, and I assume that this is a hot iron Paradox does not even want to touch.

True in all accounts, but which is worse: add Jewish features properly and cause inevitable issues with... "not Jewish friendly players" or continue to pretend the Jewish community barely ever did anything (one Jewish advisor every six hundred years) and annoy and offend every single Jewish player and/or any other player concerned with Jewish influence and heritage during that time and age?

I mean, the game as it is often involve religious persecution, ethnic purge and mass murder* of hypothetical fictional people. That is what happens when you make a historically accurate (or at least historically plausible) game as EU is. These things are already there and apply to basically every other culture, nation and faith in the (then) world, so leaving one particular group pretty much out is disrespectful in itself. And this is not empty sjw rhetoric, the Jewish people were massively influential despite their small number and limited rights. Leaving a major influence of that period out is just wrong.
There is not much of a difference between forcing Jews out of Spain and forcing His Holiness out of Rome to win that Byzantine achievement, is there?

If they do, how about Sinti and Roma?

As I said, I do not really know that much about the Romani people to say if they had enough influence to be a main feature in the game. I do realise smaller communities are lucky to be mentioned, the entire vast and populous infinite nation of the Principality of Monaco and the Grimaldi dynasty were left out probably because of that, so I do not really know about how and where to insert them. Maybe a "Saint Sarah something" achievement for doing something as Bohemia/Wallachia/Romania/Hungary in Egypt? I do not know. Someone more educated in their lore may have a proper suggestion.

______________________________

*I was going to say genocide, but the only two actual examples of genocide that come to mind are Cromwell in Ireland and the Turks in Greece... and nearly everywhere else. So, mass murder accounts for wars, migration and you crushing those pesky rebellious peasants.

 

[MadDoctorScientist]

You will have to wait for there to be POPs in EU5 for any representation of the Ashkenazi and Sephardic diaspora throughout Europe and the Middle East.

Have they announced a new one already? :O

 

[FantasticFwoosh]

I can't see why it can't just be a Old World Intercontinental movement of culture (if you accept full cultural autonomy) like the new world expulsed culture mechanic,and/or a temporary modifier that imparts local buff/debuff to the province but has a chance to spring related seperatist rebels in your nation if it becomes too unruly.

A accessway to convert to Jewish maybe, or Byzantine/Iberian Granadian culture.

 

[JCommander]

In terms of game mechanics, adding events related to Jewish (influential) minorities under other nations should be relatively easy to make, as are other similar events already in place (welcoming the Greek refugees after the fall of Constantinople, assorted nation-specific advisors, major bonus or penalties from religious/societal choices, etc.), so... why not add them?

I've brought this up in the past. I suggested an estate for Jews similar to the Dhimmi for Muslim nations.

 

[Tricubus]

Have they announced a new one already? :O

No lol, but there probably will be one eventually.

 

[MadDoctorScientist]

No lol, but there probably will be one eventually.

Which may take another decade or more, so maybe asking for it now is not that much of a terrible idea. Plus the thought of having to spend all that money all over again... good grief.

I've brought this up in the past. I suggested an estate for Jews similar to the Dhimmi for Muslim nations.

"Judaism hasn't had enough direct political influence to have state religion mechanics, but it would be interesting to have province and/or state mechanics for areas which historically had large Jewish populations, such as Poland, Russia, and (initially) southern Spain. Perhaps even an estate? Also, maybe some mechanics representing the banking services of Court Jews, similar to the "Borrow Money from Jewish Merchants" in CK2?"

I am not familiar with any of the Crusader Kings games, but your idea sounds really interesting. I just need to point out that giving a state to Jews would be wildly too generous from even the most pious and tolerant of rulers (for some reason "The Merchant of Venice" just came to mind). Other than that, the idea of having Court Jews as some sort of inner mechanic sounds very interesting. What I am unsure about is how it could work. Between the physicians, scientists/craftsmen, merchants/moneylenders, sailors/explorers, artists/jewellers and so on, how to decide how and where the apply? Besides, Jewish ghettos and/or slightly more liberal communities (Prague is a interesting example) their numbers were slightly bigger than most people assume. So, how to decide where the communities "(...) for areas which historically had large Jewish populations(...)" would be located?

 

[Alyosha]

One way to represent Jewish communities could be as a province modifier denoting a significant presence. These could bring both benefits to the province but also act as trigger conditions for events. Additionally (not sure if this can be done via province modifier) it could be a slight reduction in religious unity.

Careful attention would have to be paid on topics like the Expulsion (already in game) or any other events that moved these modifiers around.

Perhaps a fully Humanist state could allow for the full acceptance of the community allowing for a global modifier.

 

[MadDoctorScientist]

Perhaps a fully Humanist state could allow for the full acceptance of the community allowing for a global modifier.

It would probably better to keep it as a decision available only in the Revolution Era or later. Historically, Napoleon emancipated the Jews in 1798, if I remember correctly, and the newly formed United States (I think it was Benjamin Franklyn who insisted the most on that, but I may be wrong; studied that ages ago) did so around that time too. So, with the exception of Poland that granted them legal and social equality in 1290-something with the Statute of Kalisz, it would make more sense to wait until then given that even somewhat tolerant states still had forced clothing and segregation in ghettos. Venice and assorted trade republics, for instance, despite they being much more pragmatical and capitalist than everyone else.
So, while full Humanist Ideas should definitively grant the huge huge tolerance bonuses it already grants, full equality would have to wait until much later, except by Poland.

On the other hand, maybe including Sabbatai Zevi or Yakov Frank (or similar) could be used as an event to highly increase or decrease tolerance depending on Religious or Humanist ideas and assorted details of when and where and maybe monarch traits and government form. Or something could be used entirely.

One thing I really dislike about Humanist Ideas is the exceptions and the specific cases. Cromwell's dictatorship, for instance, would be a example of full Religious Ideas under Reformed Faith, with extreme low tolerance for Catholics, High Anglicans and Muslins, but somewhat high tolerance for Jews. How does that make sense in-game assuming Humanist Ideas are a tad too generous towards heretics and heathens?

 

[Alyosha]

It would probably better to keep it as a decision available only in the Revolution Era or later. Historically, Napoleon emancipated the Jews in 1798, if I remember correctly, and the newly formed United States (I think it was Benjamin Franklyn who insisted the most on that, but I may be wrong; studied that ages ago) did so around that time too. So, with the exception of Poland that granted them legal and social equality in 1290-something with the Statute of Kalisz, it would make more sense to wait until then given that even somewhat tolerant states still had forced clothing and segregation in ghettos. Venice and assorted trade republics, for instance, despite they being much more pragmatical and capitalist than everyone else.
So, while full Humanist Ideas should definitively grant the huge huge tolerance bonuses it already grants, full equality would have to wait until much later, except by Poland.

On the other hand, maybe including Sabbatai Zevi or Yakov Frank (or similar) could be used as an event to highly increase or decrease tolerance depending on Religious or Humanist ideas and assorted details of when and where and maybe monarch traits and government form. Or something could be used entirely.

One thing I really dislike about Humanist Ideas is the exceptions and the specific cases. Cromwell's dictatorship, for instance, would be a example of full Religious Ideas under Reformed Faith, with extreme low tolerance for Catholics, High Anglicans and Muslins, but somewhat high tolerance for Jews. How does that make sense in-game assuming Humanist Ideas are a tad too generous towards heretics and heathens?

I don’t think any would argue that Humanist is a tad too generous to all of the non-dominant faith in game.

To your point probably would be best to not grant some global modifier. Perhaps Humanist gets a chance of some better events for being tolerant (it already does!) but in this case specifically.

 

[nguyenforthewin13]

I find it funny this is being brought up right now. I recently made a mod called Important Political Events which includes some Jewish events (but only seven, which is really not enough). One of the sets of main events I made was a pair related to the mistreatment of the Jews and another one for refugees. Basically, countries that have Religious Ideas, Cruel rulers, Malevolent rulers, or any number of other hypothetically bad factors for Jewish people have a probability of having Jewish refugees flee from their country, taking development with them. They can then resettle in neighboring countries, but if denied from said countries, will move to another country neighboring that one, such that you can get what is practically a chain migration.

6 dev points are lost from the Jewish refugees event and 3 are gained, but the event occurs only with a MTTH of 50 years that is sped up or slowed down by different factors. Adopting Humanist ideas stops the bad events completely and increases the likelihood that development will be gained from a separate event involving Jewish settlement in the country. I also added an event for Poland to get a permanent -10% dev cost because at one point, three quarters of the world's Jews lived in Poland.

These are simple ideas I think Paradox could implement without necessitating the introduction of pops or minority religions or anything like that. Just basic events that allow the Jews to exist in game as a minority that, even if it's not on the map, is not totally invisible.

 

[MadDoctorScientist]

I find it funny this is being brought up right now. I recently made a mod called Important Political Events which includes some Jewish events (but only seven, which is really not enough). One of the sets of main events I made was a pair related to the mistreatment of the Jews and another one for refugees. Basically, countries that have Religious Ideas, Cruel rulers, Malevolent rulers, or any number of other hypothetically bad factors for Jewish people have a probability of having Jewish refugees flee from their country, taking development with them. They can then resettle in neighboring countries, but if denied from said countries, will move to another country neighboring that one, such that you can get what is practically a chain migration.

That is indeed something I mentioned a few times. The monarch and idea-related ones would probably work better as repeatable events instead of unique events, given the low odds of everything coming together perfectly, so it would literally be like any other event.

Alas, as a IronMan man, mods are not helpful to me, but knowing there is a way to actually implement those things without making game balance fall down in flames is a relief.

 

[fireduck]

Considering that Jains are represented in-game as an Estate for Indian nations, a similar approach could be taken to represent the Jewish population in Europe and the Middle East.

 

[AirikrStrife]

Considering that Jains are represented in-game as an Estate for Indian nations, a similar approach could be taken to represent the Jewish population in Europe and the Middle East.

Now when estates is not given provinces, I see that as a possibly viable option, but not sure yet how it's gonna look

 

[Blk82]

Some countries in Europe did not have a Jewish population during all or part of the time frame. Spain and Portugal expelled the Jews in the late 15th century, and Jews were not present in England, Scotland or Denmark until the 17th century, and not in Sweden until the 18th century. Without a POPs system, there is not a good way to show minority populations. The "court Jew," as far as I can tell, seems to limited to central Europe (or Iberia in the 15th century). And even where court Jews are present, they normally would not have risen to "adviser" level positions.

 

[MadDoctorScientist]

Considering that Jains are represented in-game as an Estate for Indian nations, a similar approach could be taken to represent the Jewish population in Europe and the Middle East.

Now when estates is not given provinces, I see that as a possibly viable option, but not sure yet how it's gonna look

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but giving a province to a estate is almost the same as giving a fief to a feudal lord, the state/monarch loses some of his direct authority there as the members of said state occupy the administration and governance of the region, plus its economy and trade regulations (the cossacks usually ended being basically independent, but again, they were cossacks...). As far as I am aware, never in European history have Jews been granted authority over a region larger than a ghetto, in fact there were strict laws forbidding them from owning land, which caused so many Jews to be city dwellers and mostly merchants, scholars and craftsmen.
The only brief exceptions to that rule, as far as I am aware, were the hordes of Khazar Jews and the period of a few weeks when Tariq ibn Ziyad gave weapons to Jewish militias who them committed many atrocities against the Christian Visigoths. So, a estate is really rather absurd really since it is so out of context and wildly out of touch with reality, unless it somehow operates without actually granting lands to Jews, but privileges and influence or something.

Plus the factor that Judaism is a religion in game, so how would things work if by some miracle or custom nation a Jewish province ended under the influence of a nation with a Jewish estate?

 

[MadDoctorScientist]

Some countries in Europe did not have a Jewish population during all or part of the time frame. Spain and Portugal expelled the Jews in the late 15th century, and Jews were not present in England, Scotland or Denmark until the 17th century, and not in Sweden until the 18th century. Without a POPs system, there is not a good way to show minority populations. The "court Jew," as far as I can tell, seems to limited to central Europe (or Iberia in the 15th century). And even where court Jews are present, they normally would not have risen to "adviser" level positions.

About the advisor roles, it was quite rare for them to not gain at least a little room in influential circles given they were at least mildly tolerated in said society. To this day Jewish individuals and communities tend to be more educated and community driven, so it is not hard to imagine how it was after their dispersion in Pagan Rome, then Christian Rome, then Germanic/Slavic Pagans, then Germanic/Slavic Christians, then Islamic Jihadi, then Crusaders, and so on. These communities were much closer and much more scholarly, causing many to rise to positions when the religious climate was right (the Portaleone family I mentioned is a good example of that), plus the influence caused by their moneylending and trading as a consequence of the ban on Jews owning lands (the Rothschild family being a example of that). So, similar to priests and mullahs and such, educated Jews had a good chance of becoming Court Jews as long as the circumstances were favourable.

About the second half, there are a few issues there. While it is true that they were more significant in Iberia, France, assorted Italian areas, parts of the H.R.E., Slavic portions of Eastern Europe and most of the Latin/Greek/Islamic Near and Middle East, they were in small numbers in Great Britain (for instance, Ivanhoe maybe not be a very accurate novel, but it represents the love-hate-hate relationship between Christians and Jews back when Norman and Anglo-Saxons were still getting used to each other, there is records of Jews in Scotland as early as 1180-something, mostly due to English Jews fleeing persecution [Ivanhoe yet again]) and a minor presence Scandinavia (if I remember it right, they were present in Norway and Iceland as early as the Christianisation of the Vikings, and one saga mentions Jewish traders by name, I just can not remember which one from the top of my head right now), but indeed they only began to settle in "larger" numbers during and due to the Reformation and Counter-Reformation. So, Jews in Scandinavia may be less significant to this, but the Polish are the most prominent of them all, so given the oddities that occur in game, something may happen. I guess?

 

[Blk82]

Ivanhoe is set in the 1190's, while the Jews were expelled from England in 1290, and not readmitted until 1656. Due to various expulsions (for simple non-settlement by Jews), several countries had effectively no Jewish population or some or all of the EUIV time frame. The Jews did somewhat function like an "estate" in Poland or the Ottoman Empire. But in places like England, the native population was doing the economic functions normally associated with Jews just fine on their own. (In other words, England appears none the worse for not having access to potential court Jews.) In fact, I would argue that commerce being in the hands of minority groups is actually harmful, as it causes commerce and industry to lose its representation at court and parliament. But, allowing the immigration of skilled and high income people is clearly beneficial.

Since the game lacks a POP system, it simply does not deal with minority populations. The only way around that is implementing a province modifier system, which is the same thing, but only worse.