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Daelyn75

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Hahahaha, derp. You are correct. I was reading this thread while juggling a couple of other things and missed a few sentences. :p
It was more that I didn't want to make separate posts and edited the ends of a few of them after they were posted. One of them was done literally a minute before you posted, so there was really no way you could know unless you kept refreshing and back tracking to read my comments again.

I just wanted Ki-48 to be represented. I didn't know you already had done that until I went and took a look at the CAS line. Then I was wondering why it was in the 1944 slot, and after reading what you and Elouda wrote, then I understood. Your Japanese aircraft tree is pretty spot on after going over it all. I just hope that the Devs take notice of this thread.
 
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Admiral Piett

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On the topic of the 1933 medium/tactical bomber, I'm thinking the Ki-1 be more appropriate than the Ki-2. The Ki-21 was designed to replace both the Ki-20 and Ki-1, not the Ki-2 (which was a light bomber), and the Ki-20 is already in the 1936 "strategic" bomber role. The Ki-2 -> Ki-21 transition would make sense in the context of a Ki-1 -> G5N transition, but now with the Ki-1 unused in my hypothetical tech tree I'm thinking it should be put in the correct position. Thoughts?
 
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SchwarzKatze

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The Ki-48 was classified and used by the Japanese as a light/dive bomber, not a medium/tactical bomber. The number of engines can throw people off, but later Ki-48 variants had dive brakes and all. The Ki-49 was the direct replacement for the Ki-21 in the medium/tactical bomber (Japanese "Heavy" designation) role. It says so right in the design specifications. I have the Ki-48 as the "1944" tech CAS aircraft, because the IJAAS has nothing else to fit that position. TECHNICALLY the Ki-102 would since it was actually a ground attack aircraft until later variants, but that gets overly detailed and confusing for a tech tree like this.
Why not Ki-71? It was the planned successor to Ki-51 afterall, while only marginally better than Ki-51 IRL which resulted in its cancellation, it's still the best fit for a last CAS IMO.
 
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Daelyn75

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On the topic of the 1933 medium/tactical bomber, I'm thinking the Ki-1 be more appropriate than the Ki-2. The Ki-21 was designed to replace both the Ki-20 and Ki-1, not the Ki-2 (which was a light bomber), and the Ki-20 is already in the 1936 "strategic" bomber role. The Ki-2 -> Ki-21 transition would make sense in the context of a Ki-1 -> G5N transition, but now with the Ki-1 unused in my hypothetical tech tree I'm thinking it should be put in the correct position. Thoughts?
It could work, but like I wrote earlier, the Ki-1 was obsolete from the moment it entered service. The Ki-20, only six were built and it's from 1931. That's why I left it out, but now I see I have put two Ki-21s in the 1936 slot, so maybe yeah. The Japanese tree isn't an easy one to navigate.

We need to start the game with at least a usable number. The Ki-1 and Ki-2 both had less than 200 produced for them. It really wouldn't be that big of a deal to switch Ki-1 into the slot. These aircraft will most likely never even get built by any player, since they start in 1936 and there is a better bomber to start manufacturing.
 
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Admiral Piett

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Yeah, Ki-1 wasn't great, but I don't think the Ki-2 was either. They are both dumpy little things. There is the I-Type, which were Italian Br. 20s in IJAAS service as a stop-gap between the Ki-1 and the Ki-21. They were flat-out foreign purchases though:

Japanesebr-20


Wasn't the Ki-71 a recon version of the Ki-51? I didn't think it was a successor.
 
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Elouda

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I dont think the Japanese are going to start the game with any strategic bombers, in either start, so I don't think it matters how many were produced in real life. Japan built only a handful of 'real' heavy bombers during the war, so its inevitable than any model picked for them is going to be low in numbers.
 
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SchwarzKatze

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Wasn't the Ki-71 a recon version of the Ki-51? I didn't think it was a successor.
The English Wikipedia articles contradicts each other: it claims that Ki-71 was a recon version manufactured by Manshu, but the article of Manchurian Aircraft claims that it's a dive bomber. The confusion probably arose from that both it and its predecessor were available in both roles, armored in the CAS configuration, unarmored in the recon configuration. It's essentially a Ki-51 with flexible gears and a better engine (940hp->1,500hp), but in reality they added so much weight that the performance improvement is marginal.
 
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Admiral Piett

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Here is what I have from the reference book that I have on hand. Daelyn might have more in what he has, I don't know:

"In 1941, engineers from Mansyu Hikoki Seizo K.K. (Manchurian Aeroplane Manufacturing Co Ltd) were sent to the Tachikawa Dai-Ichi Rikugun Kokusho to develop an advanced version of the aircraft as the Ki-71 Army Experimental Tactical Reconnaissance Plane. Powered by one 1,500 hp Mitsubishi Ha-112-II radial, armed with two wing-mounted 20mm Ho-5 cannon and featuring a retractable undercarriage, three Ki-71 prototypes were built at the Army Arsenal. Despite a more powerful engine and the use of a retractable undercarriage, the Ki-71 had a maximum speed of only 470 km/h (292 mph) and the design was not accepted for production."

So, you are correct. The IJAAS tended to lump recon and CAS into one category (Tactical Reconnaissance). The Ki-71 was just a failed off-shoot of the Ki-51 though. I still favour the Ki-48 myself, though I'm open to other views.
 
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SchwarzKatze

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The Ki-71 was just a failed off-shoot of the Ki-51 though. I still favour the Ki-48 myself, though I'm open to other views.
It's just my preference for choosing one with the "right" (i.e. single for CAS) number of engines over actual successfulness:rolleyes:
 

wotertool

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It's just my preference for choosing one with the "right" (i.e. single for CAS) number of engines over actual successfulness:rolleyes:

And that's why we all have a major in-common tree with a few exceptions, because we have different preferences. We should actually try to stay objective and use the japanese classification rather than "looks like a medium bomber to me"-stuff. Also, the japanese "1 Ton Bombs" were all 800 kg AP or HE bombs. The next biggest step was a 2 Ton bomb, as far as my knowledge goes. The max bombload for some planes were listed as 1000 kg meaning they could use this configuration: 2x 500kg bombs or 4x 250 kg bombs.

Currently the small differences we have are in the CAS Section of the IJAAF. Going from Ki-31 to Ki-51 and then a missing. For the 1944 slot, we all are looking for an IJA plane, and it appears to me that you all look for a single engine powered one.

And there is the problem, not one dedicated ground attack aircraft with a single engine was made for the Army in the later stages of the war. Only twin-engine projects and productions ran, and they fullfilled this role as CAS.

Nakajima started an A6M2 Sen-Baku production run in 1944 to hand the IJN a "capable" dive bomber plane that was able to take off from the few support carriers the Navy had left. This would make a nice late war dive bomber, but it's a Navy plane so let us put it aside.

The seriell produced Ki-102 Otsu (twin engine) was dedicated to ground and naval attacks. The Ki-83 would be perfect to replace it in the Heavy Fighter Tree.
The Ki-93 (twin engine) prototype was made for the same role. It was actually the last plane intended for ground attacks.

The Ki-119 single engine fighter had a secondary role as dive bomber, but the plane remained more or less on the drawing board because of delays and bombing raids. The prototype was not finished. However, it wouldbe the only one blueprint plane, next to the the jet bomber/fighter (depends on wether they classify the Kikka as light bomber or fighter).

The Ki-48 (twin engine) light bomber is too old to fit the 1944 role, (so actually does the Ki-66 which was hardly an improvment).
The Ki-71 falls out of question since it was not intended for further ground support role, it's not even sure if it was capable to install bomb racks.

Now what would be an online post without personal opinion:
I'd suggest we shove the Ki-102 Otsu to the CAS Line to the 1944 slot (since it was a ground attack aircraft) and replace it's heavy fighter slot with the Ki-83 Fighter.
 
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Orlunu

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And that's why we all have a major in-common tree with a few exceptions, because we have different preferences. We should actually try to stay objective and use the japanese classification rather than "looks like a medium bomber to me"-stuff. Also, the japanese "1 Ton Bombs" were all 800 kg AP or HE bombs. The next biggest step was a 2 Ton bomb, as far as my knowledge goes. The max bombload for some planes were listed as 1000 kg meaning they could use this configuration: 2x 500kg bombs or 4x 250 kg bombs.



Now what would be an online post without personal opinion:
I'd suggest we shove the Ki-102 Otsu to the CAS Line to the 1944 slot (since it was a ground attack aircraft) and replace it's heavy fighter slot with the Ki-83 Fighter.

There was a 1.5 ton bomb that saw a little production. The H8K could carry one under each wing, which was pretty noteworthy.

You know I can't say no to the Ki-102 Otsu. I was a bit leery of including it here because the original variant was a fighter, but about a hundred times as many of the attackers were made, so agree.
 
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SchwarzKatze

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Since carrier bombers are portrayed as variants of CAS bombers, shouldn't we stick to single engined planes? That would make the tech less awkward and make a more convincing case to the devs.

And yes, I did look up the terms in first hand IJAAS documents, see page 25 of
http://www.jacar.go.jp/DAS/meta/ima...兵器研究方針&IS_TAG_S1=InfoD&IS_KIND=SimpleSummary&
Transcription:
(二)軍偵機
一、主トシテ捜索ニ、時トシテ襲撃ニ用フ
二、襲撃機ト同一機種トス 但シ装備ハ用途ニ異シ適当取捨スルモノス
  瓦斯雨下装置ヲ特別装備トシ其ノ装備量ハ爆弾ノ二分ノ一以下トス
三、常用高度ハ二、〇〇〇乃至四、〇〇〇米トス
Rough translation:
II. Military Reconnaissance Aircraft
1. Is used mainly for reconnaissance, secondarily for assault
2. Is the same type of airplane as assault aircraft(襲撃機), but loadout varys depending on the usage
When gas deployment device is equipped under extraordinary circumstances, its load is under half of that of bombs
3. Normal altitude: 2,000 meter to 4,000 meter.

The other two type of recon aircrafts were 司令部偵察機(司偵機), Command Reconnaissance Aircraft and 直接協同偵察機(直協機). The full name for 軍偵機 is 軍偵察機.

So yes, even if it's translated as "reconnaissance aircraft", a 軍偵機 is just a 襲撃機 with different loadouts.
 

SchwarzKatze

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Daelyn75

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Since carrier bombers are portrayed as variants of CAS bombers, shouldn't we stick to single engined planes? That would make the tech less awkward and make a more convincing case to the devs.

And yes, I did look up the terms in first hand IJAAS documents, see page 25 of
http://www.jacar.go.jp/DAS/meta/image_C01004543300?IS_STYLE=default&IS_KEY_S1=航空 兵器研究方針&IS_TAG_S1=InfoD&IS_KIND=SimpleSummary&
Transcription:

Rough translation:


The other two type of recon aircrafts were 司令部偵察機(司偵機), Command Reconnaissance Aircraft and 直接協同偵察機(直協機). The full name for 軍偵機 is 軍偵察機.

So yes, even if it's translated as "reconnaissance aircraft", a 軍偵機 is just a 襲撃機 with different loadouts.
There are other designs of two engine planes that fit into the role of CAS for other nations. Germany with the Henshel 129 for me being the most glaring one. There is no conceivable reason to reduce a type of aircraft to just one engine. We've already spent most of our time on this thread discussing the switch from single engine navy bombers to twin engine. There are twin engine fighters out there that get lumped into the heavy fighter group alongside large single engine planes like the P-47.

Then we have the four engine fw 200 Condor that fits into the 1940 German Naval Bomber role. Please get out of dev mentality that started this thread in the first place, which was to have all ground based naval bombers as single engine planes.

If it's meant for the role, then it goes in - regardless of engine number.
 

Daelyn75

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Here is what I have from the reference book that I have on hand. Daelyn might have more in what he has, I don't know:

"In 1941, engineers from Mansyu Hikoki Seizo K.K. (Manchurian Aeroplane Manufacturing Co Ltd) were sent to the Tachikawa Dai-Ichi Rikugun Kokusho to develop an advanced version of the aircraft as the Ki-71 Army Experimental Tactical Reconnaissance Plane. Powered by one 1,500 hp Mitsubishi Ha-112-II radial, armed with two wing-mounted 20mm Ho-5 cannon and featuring a retractable undercarriage, three Ki-71 prototypes were built at the Army Arsenal. Despite a more powerful engine and the use of a retractable undercarriage, the Ki-71 had a maximum speed of only 470 km/h (292 mph) and the design was not accepted for production."

So, you are correct. The IJAAS tended to lump recon and CAS into one category (Tactical Reconnaissance). The Ki-71 was just a failed off-shoot of the Ki-51 though. I still favour the Ki-48 myself, though I'm open to other views.
I think that the Ki-71 is a good candidate for the CAS 1944 slot, but take note that it sort of fits into the tactical bomber slot as well. But if we must have a more modern 1944 CAS aircraft, I think that one would be a better choice compared to throwing in an older aircraft that was retired in in 1944.

So then it's up to what aircraft made more of an impact for the 1936 CAS slot, and the 1940 slot. The Ki-30, or Ki-32, and the Ki-48, or Ki-51. More Ki-48s were used than the Ki-51s, but the Ki-51s had their own impact on the war.

For the Ki-30:

"The Ki-30s were first used in combat in Second Sino-Japanese War from spring 1938. It proved to be reliable in rough field operations, and highly effective while operating with fighter escort. This success continued in the early stages of the Pacific War, and the Ki-30s participated extensively in operations in the Philippines. However, once unescorted Ki-30s met Allied fighters, losses mounted rapidly and the type was soon withdrawn to second-line duties. By the end of 1942, most Ki-30s were relegated to a training role. Many aircraft were expended in kamikaze attacks towards the end of the war.[5]

From late 1940, the Ki-30 was in service with the Royal Thai Air Force, and saw combat in January 1941 against the French in French Indochina in the French-Thai War. Additional Ki-30s were transferred from Japan in 1942." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_Ki-30#Operational_history

For the Ki-32:

"Ki-32s during World War II were also supplied to the Manchukuo Air Force to replace their obsolescent Kawasaki Type 88/KDA-2 light bombers; they were the main bomber of that service through the conflict.[4]

After their withdrawal from front-line service in 1942 the Ki-32s were used in a training role." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawasaki_Ki-32#Operational_history

For the Ki-51:

"The Mitsubishi Ki-51 (Army designation "Type 99 Assault Plane". Allied nickname "Sonia") was a light bomber/dive bomber in service with the Imperial Japanese Army during World War II. It first flew in mid-1939. Initially deployed against Chinese forces, it proved to be too slow to hold up against the fighter aircraft of the other Allied powers. However, it performed a useful ground-attack role in the China-Burma-India theater, notably from airfields too rough for many other aircraft. As the war drew to a close, they began to be used in kamikaze attacks. Total production was around 2,385 units.

On the day Hiroshima was destroyed by an atomic bomb, two Ki-51s scored the last Japanese sinking of a US warship, sinking USS Bullhead (SS-332) with all hands.

Charles Lindbergh, flying a P-38 Lightning shot down a Ki-51 after a vigorous dogfight in which the much slower Ki-51 utilized its low speed maneuverability and made a fight of it." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_Ki-51

For the Ki-48:

"The aircraft served in China from late 1940, replacing the Kawasaki Ki-32, and were widely used in the Philippines, Malaya, Burma, New Guinea, the Solomon Islands and the Dutch East Indies, where the Ki-48 Ia and Ib models, slow and badly armed, were supplemented by the marginally improved Ki-48 IIa and IIc, which were maintained in service along with the older types until the end of the war.

All models continued in service until the Battle of Okinawa during April 1945, when many were converted into kamikaze aircraft (Ki-48-II KAI Tai-Atari) armed with an 800 kg (1,760 lb) bomb." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawasaki_Ki-48#Operational_history

I'd make the CAS for 1936 either the Ki-30 or 32, and 1940 the Ki-48 or Ki-51 since actually the Ki-51 came out six months earlier than the Ki-48 but both are candidates for the 1940 CAS slot Finally for 1944 CAS, I'd go with the Ki-71.

To me it all comes down to the 1936 and 1940 CAS slots. It's a weird one where the Ki-30, Ki-32, Ki-48, and Ki-51 all came out from 1937-1940. Maybe choose one from the first two, for 1936, and one from the second two for 1940. There is no way to include everything. Until we actually get factories owned by certain companies that produce their own aircraft or have license to produce someone other companies aircraft, then this cannot every be 100% accurately resolved.
 
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SchwarzKatze

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Nov 8, 2008
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There are other designs of two engine planes that fit into the role of CAS for other nations. Germany with the Henshel 129 for me being the most glaring one. There is no conceivable reason to reduce a type of aircraft to just one engine. We've already spent most of our time on this thread discussing the switch from single engine navy bombers to twin engine. There are twin engine fighters out there that get lumped into the heavy fighter group alongside large single engine planes like the P-47.

Then we have the four engine fw 200 Condor that fits into the 1940 German Naval Bomber role. Please get out of dev mentality that started this thread in the first place, which was to have all ground based naval bombers as single engine planes.

If it's meant for the role, then it goes in - regardless of engine number.
Are we making a mod here? I though we're petitioning for changing the names and pictures used in vanilla.