Japanese Kamikazees

[Sharkfreak06]

I think Paradox needs to do something to put the factor of kamikazees in HOI 2. I know threads like this have been posted before, and everyone came to the conclusion they weren't deadly enough to play a factor... but I don't think that's true at all.

The best way to implement them would be to make them available for construction by a Japanese player after Japan falls to a certain VP range, meaning he is clearly losing. They can be built like V1 and V2 rockets are right now, and require 1 manpower. Then they can be deployed at airbases and move like planes can, and they can attack once and cause bigtime org loss if they hit... just a suggestion.

 

[unmerged(60756)]

I think the problem is not to produce this kind of units, but the intelligence service availible for the specific country.

There´s absolutly no use of special forces, if they´re not connected to a very well organized military intelligence.

 

[unmerged(51702)]

Blue Emu is right with the usage of the word "sortie"...that brings the points home

 

[unmerged(51251)]

Special forces such as Rangers, Commandoes, etc were not deployed in Division or Brigade strength. They are hardly suitable for a game of this size.

They absolutely were used in Brigade Strength

In 1942, the British Royal Navy's nine Royal Marines infantry battalions were reorganized as commandos, numbered from 40 to 48. They joined the British Army Commandos in combined Commando Brigades...

A joint Canadian-American Commando unit, the 1st Special Service Force, nicknamed the Devil's Brigade, was formed in 1942 under the command of Colonel Robert Frederick...

The first IJAAS raiding units were formed in 1941. These consisted of raiding brigades (Teishin Dan), raiding aviation brigades (Teishin Hikodan), raiding regiments (Teishin Sentai), and raiding aviation regiments (Teishin Hikosentai).

 

[unmerged(55060)]

Well really Kamikazees were used in conjunction with other "Cover" fighters so they could actually get through to their targets. Kamikazee planes were different than other Jap fighters (especially late in the war), although I am sure many times pilots of all types of planes were faced with the decision to go down in flames alone, or with a US ship.

I doubt you ever saw a very effective attack with 5 or 6 planes flying alone against a sizeable opponent.

There were also kamikazee subs...

 

[unmerged(5892)]

They absolutely were used in Brigade Strength

Your point confirms that they were organised in brigade strength, not that they were used in this fashion.

WAC units were equally organised in battalions and divisions. Should we have brigades of them? Perhaps they give a moral bonus with a slight hard attack loss?

 

[unmerged(56137)]

I think Blue Emu is on the money with this one. Possibly a random-firing event would be the best means of simulating the effects of kamikaze attacks. The effects of any such event would be highly debatable, however.

The event could possibly give a small bonus for the effectiveness of bombers against ships "simulating" the effect of the japaneese airforce becoming more deadly to US ships, maybe causing greater strength damage to the planes as well ?

 

[unmerged(55467)]

Kamikazee attacks were an act of desperation. If you're at a point you need to use them, you should just begin a new game.

Yes, because a game where you're not easily winning is clearly pointless.

 

[unmerged(55060)]

The best part of the game is that you don't have to play historically all the time.

Just because Kamikazees were used in acts of despair doesn't mean that they had to be used that way. Just because they were normally used in small squads is irrelevant because they were used in larger numbers historically and could be used in large numbers in the game if that is how you wanted to develop your airforce...

 

[Sharkfreak06]

Yes, because a game where you're not easily winning is clearly pointless.

The game isn't just about winning either... I actually enjoy playing games where defeat is almost inevitable more than when victory is certain because the desperation is one of the best parts of a war strategy game. Placing yourself at the command of a nation who is fighting for their very survival is thrilling in my mind, and I would not quit til the bitter end... on the other hand I quit a lot of games where I have crushed my opponents into submission far before it ends. That's the whole reason I proposed the kamikaze idea, because I think weapons of desperation really do have a place in this game, and would add to the experience.... I was a little surprised so many people found reasons to exclude them, but I haven't found a good argument yet.

EDIT:
By the way DCP: Yes, I caught your sarcasm .

 

[unmerged(61079)]

One thing to keep in mind is that kamikazes are quite inefficient.

If the pilot crashes his plane both plane and pilot is permantly lost (duh), training pilots is usually quite expensive and time consuming thus it would be better if he lived to fight another day.

But if you are loosing a very high percentage of your ac/pilots anyway, it might be more efficient to use kamikazes. At this stage in the war regular fighter pilots and kamikazes had about the same chance of survival.
Unless the situation is truly desperate the isnt really any point to kamikaze units.

I cant really see how you would model kamikazes in HOi2, as the game cant model how vastly superior american aircraft, pilots and tactics were later in the war.
Vastly increased strenght losses for the aircraft and slightly higher nav attack?
What would be the point?

btw, I really enjoy playing the underdog as well

 

[Sharkfreak06]

You raise some good points... but remember kamikaze pilots were often times as young as children... and they actually received very little training... they weren't even instructed how to land in case they might change their minds and not want to die. I read somewhere a while back, later in the war kamikaze pilots were given 2 training missions that lasted about an hour each... and the number of volunteers they got constantly surpassed the number of planes they were able to send up as well, so manpower losses should be minimal... only production cost should be used when producing kamikazes IMO.

 

[unmerged(47946)]

The best part of the game is that you don't have to play historically all the time.

Just because Kamikazees were used in acts of despair doesn't mean that they had to be used that way. Just because they were normally used in small squads is irrelevant because they were used in larger numbers historically and could be used in large numbers in the game if that is how you wanted to develop your airforce...

Although it would be a pretty crappy way to organize your air force...

...and your Chief of the Air Force would be only slightly less popular than the plague

 

[unmerged(60815)]

Kamikaze attacks were hardly effective. And just succeeded in further depleting japans supply of trained pilots and flyable aircraft. For the loss of thousands of aircraft in kamikaze attacks of the war. What, sunk 50 ships maybe?

 

[blue emu]

... but remember kamikaze pilots were often times as young as children...

This is nonsense. All Kamikaze pilots were graduates of Flight Schools. Many of them were graduates of the Naval Academy. If they were children, they must have had IQs of 250 to get through all those tough courses before their teens.

... and they actually received very little training... they weren't even instructed how to land in case they might change their minds and not want to die...

Also nonsense. A great number of Kamikaze sorties turned back and returned to base, either because they couldn't find a worthwhile target, or because of weather. What were they supposed to do then, if they "weren't even instructed how to land"? Crash into the Control Tower? The Japanese could not afford to waste planes and pilots... they needed to expend each one profitably.

The Kamikaze Corps had no problem with pilots "not wanting to die"... giving their lives to protect the Emperor had a mystical, semi-religious meaning that is totally lost on the contemporary, Western mind.

I read somewhere a while back, later in the war kamikaze pilots were given 2 training missions that lasted about an hour each... and the number of volunteers they got constantly surpassed the number of planes they were able to send up as well, so manpower losses should be minimal... only production cost should be used when producing kamikazes IMO.

Even experienced combat pilots were given seven days instruction, as late as Spring 1945.

The first two days were spent practicing rapid roll-outs and take-offs, neccessary since the Americans often had Air Superiority even over the Japanese bases and a plane was at risk from the moment the camoflage was removed.

The third and fourth day were devoted to Formation Flying, since special formations were used by the Kamikaze planes and their Escorts.

The fifth to seventh days were spent studying and practicing the approach-dive to the target. When time allowed, the entire seven-day course was repeated.

... and this was the course that experienced combat fliers were given... right up to the last months of the war.

Could you quote your sources for the above claims?

Mine are the memoirs of Cpt. Rikihei Inoguchi, Senior Staff Officer to Admiral Onishi, who was the originator of the Kamikaze concept; and Cdr. Tadashi Nakajima, Air Group Commander of the 201st AG, the Air Group chosen for the first Kamikaze missions in October 1944; he was also Operations and Training Officer for the 201st Kamikaze Group until the last months of the war. In English, the book is called "The Divine Wind".

 

[Sharkfreak06]

Wow.. guess Blu Emo sure blew the hell out of my arguement... haha... I told you I didn't know what I read was in, it was a few years ago but it stuck with me, I'm sure it's incorrect.

I do think that children were used as kamikaze pulots tho, I'll research it tomorrow, but I could have been mistaken.

 

[unmerged(55060)]

This is nonsense. All Kamikaze pilots were graduates of Flight Schools. Many of them were graduates of the Naval Academy. If they were children, they must have had IQs of 250 to get through all those tough courses before their teens.

1) Manchester Guardian (19th April, 1945)

"The Japanese Air Force is showing signs of real weakness after the loss of 2,280 planes in the last month to Allied carrier-based aircraft. Old training planes, with 16-year-old pilots, were among the suicide aircraft which made recent futile attacks on the Allied Fleets.

It is significant that not a single fighter rose to intercept 150 Super Fortresses which swept over airfields today in the fourth assault on the Japanese homeland in five days."

 

[unmerged(55060)]

Thursday, December 08, 2005
Japanese Kamikaze Pilots vs. Today's Human Bombs
Japan Focus recently posted a thought-provoking article by Yuki Tanaka entitled "Japan’s Kamikaze Pilots and Contemporary Suicide Bombers: War and Terror" (via Arts & Letters Daily):
It is widely believed that the major source of kamikaze suicide pilots was the Air Force Cadet Officer System in the Japanese Imperial Navy and Army Forces, which recruited university and college students on a voluntary basis. In fact, however, the majority of kamikaze pilots were young noncommissioned or petty officers, that is graduates of Navy and Army junior flight training schools.... Many assume that the majority of kamikaze pilots were former college students, because the letters-home, diaries and wills of these young men, who became kamikaze pilots through the Air Force Cadet Officer System, were compiled and published as books and pamphlets after the war.... Unfortunately similar personal records left behind by non-commissioned and petty officers are not publicly available. It is therefore necessary to rely on private records to gain a fuller understanding of the thoughts and ideas of these kamikaze pilots....

 

[binTravkin]

To end this shootout of "factual materiell" without links provided I hereby provide you with this:

"By the end of World War II, the Japanese naval air service had sacrificed 2,525 kamikaze pilots and the army air force had given 1,387. According to an official Japanese announcement, the missions sank 81 ships and damaged 195, and according to a Japanese tally, suicide attacks accounted for up to 80 percent of US losses in the final phase of the war in the Pacific.

According to a U.S. Air Force webpage:

Approximately 2,800 Kamikaze attackers sunk 34 Navy ships, damaged 368 others, killed 4,900 sailors, and wounded over 4,800. Despite radar detection and cuing, airborne interception and attrition, and massive anti-aircraft barrages, a distressing 14 percent of Kamikazes survived to score a hit on a ship; nearly 8.5 percent of all ships hit by Kamikazes sank.

Other accounts cite that more than 70 American vessels were 'sunk or damaged beyond repair'."

And this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamikaze


Go and see yourselves (unless you don't believe Wikipedia, which is altogether a different story then.. ).

 

[unmerged(60756)]

1) Manchester Guardian (19th April, 1945)

"The Japanese Air Force is showing signs of real weakness after the loss of 2,280 planes in the last month to Allied carrier-based aircraft. Old training planes, with 16-year-old pilots, were among the suicide aircraft which made recent futile attacks on the Allied Fleets.

It is significant that not a single fighter rose to intercept 150 Super Fortresses which swept over airfields today in the fourth assault on the Japanese homeland in five days."

Propaganda?

 

[blue emu]

I have to wonder how a newspaper thousands of miles away in an enemy country knew the age of the Kamikaze pilot... you don't really get much of a chance to interview the guy before or during the Suicide-dive, and afterwards... there isn't a lot left to examine. Or interview.

Not to put too fine a point on it... a crash-dive at hundreds of miles per hour by a plane loaded with bombs and gasoline will convert the pilot into a few charred scraps of hamburger.

Did the Manchester Guardian's field correspondant point at a tiny sliver of charred flesh, stuck to the side of the ship's conning tower, and shout "Look! This one was only sixteen years old!"?