Japanese Kamikazees

[Sharkfreak06]

I think Paradox needs to do something to put the factor of kamikazees in HOI 2. I know threads like this have been posted before, and everyone came to the conclusion they weren't deadly enough to play a factor... but I don't think that's true at all.

The best way to implement them would be to make them available for construction by a Japanese player after Japan falls to a certain VP range, meaning he is clearly losing. They can be built like V1 and V2 rockets are right now, and require 1 manpower. Then they can be deployed at airbases and move like planes can, and they can attack once and cause bigtime org loss if they hit... just a suggestion.

 

[unmerged(25936)]

Kamikazee attacks were an act of desperation. If you're at a point you need to use them, you should just begin a new game.

 

[unmerged(49949)]

They never had any strategic effect, so including them in the game would exaggerate their effectiveness.

 

[blue emu]

Not sure "no strategic effect" is accurate... they sunk or damaged over 380 ships, and it certainly affected US tactics.

The main reason that they aren't in the game is probably a granularity issue... they were typically used in flights of six planes or less. After all... the whole idea was to sneak in and score a hit. Hard to sneak with hundreds of planes.

Kamikazes aren't in the game for the same reason that snipers or Brandenburgers (troops disguised as enemy soldiers) aren't in the game... they were never used in units large enough to represent in a Corps-level game.

... in my opinion.

 

[unmerged(15794)]

I think Blue Emu is on the money with this one. Possibly a random-firing event would be the best means of simulating the effects of kamikaze attacks. The effects of any such event would be highly debatable, however.

 

[unmerged(25936)]

Not sure "no strategic effect" is accurate... they sunk or damaged over 380 ships, and it certainly affected US tactics.

The main reason that they aren't in the game is probably a granularity issue... they were typically used in flights of six planes or less. After all... the whole idea was to sneak in and score a hit. Hard to sneak with hundreds of planes.

Kamikazes aren't in the game for the same reason that snipers or Brandenburgers (troops disguised as enemy soldiers) aren't in the game... they were never used in units large enough to represent in a Corps-level game.

... in my opinion.

You're misleading on the first count and incorrect on the second.

The Japanese may have "damaged" over 300 ships, but they only "sank" 34 or 81, depending which source you use. Official Japanese count was 81 sank, 195 damaged, official US count was 34 sank, 368 damaged.

What's relevant though is that not one single Capital ship was sunk. Not one.* It's effect was entirely limited to destroyers and even smaller picket ships. The reasons should be obvious, most pilots choose to dive at the first ship they saw.

So in terms of practical effect it was minimal. Keeping in mind HoI2's numbers, you're discussing about 6 to 10 destroyer units being destroyed.


Secondly their tactics weren't in wings of 6 planes. That would be ridiculous and ineffective. Japanese suicide attacks were designed to overwhelm the picket structure and air defense cover. The launched a series of waves involves up to 1,500 planes in Operation Chrysanthemums at the peak off the coast of Okinawa.

In terms of affecting "tactics" it did so from an operational perspective, that is how pickets were arranged and individual aspects such as firing main guns into the water to swamp Kamikazes, but the attacks never affected tactics in a manner that the game could represent.


* Note about the "not one capital ship was sank". By that I mean no Carriers, Cruisers (light or heavy), or Battleships. 2 Escort Carriers CVE's were sank, but those were small ships which occupied picket positions alongside the destroyers. They shouldn't be confused with "light carriers", aka CVL's.

 

[Ericus1]

Oooh, the gauntlet's thrown there. I'm curious to see Blue's response.

Another problem here is that there is no way with the engine to limit a unit to a particular nation, or even ideology. Also there are no triggers that can be used to 'turn on' a unit under any conditions, the closest you could come to it would be to activate a researchable tech, but you would still then have to research it. It may be possible to just simply leave the unit unbuildable and then have divisions created by event, but that's just stupid.

If it were included, anyone from the US to Ethiopia could build Kami's, which would not only be ahistorical, it would make absolute no sense within the game engine. Kami's worked becuase of the Japanese belief system, but could you imagine that being official DOD policy? How could you possibly model in the domestic effects from having a military policy of suicide to a society that enormously disapproves of it?

All in all, I think it was left out becuase it was 1) outside the strageic scope of the game, and 2) impossible to properly model in the engine.

 

[blue emu]

You're misleading on the first count and incorrect on the second.
...

Secondly their tactics weren't in wings of 6 planes. That would be ridiculous and ineffective. Japanese suicide attacks were designed to overwhelm the picket structure and air defense cover. The launched a series of waves involves up to 1,500 planes in Operation Chrysanthemums at the peak off the coast of Okinawa.

I find it odd that you would state that so definitely... as if it were a fact.

I have in front of me... right now... the memoirs of Rikihei Inoguchi and Tadashi Nakajima, which I have been using as a source-book for Kamikaze operations.

These men were personally involved in the Kamikaze operations, from the start of them in October 1944 until they ended in May of 1945. One of them was the Commanding Admiral's personal representative for Suicide operations, the other was Flight Operations Officer for Suicide Operations in the Philippines, Formosa and the Home Islands.

I assume that they know what they are talking about.

Included in the volume is a lengthy table detailing every single Kamikaze mission that was ever launched... the table runs to several pages.

There is not a single mission involving more than 107 aircraft... and there is only that one mission that runs to three figures. Most are much smaller. Three to ten aircraft is much more typical... going through the table, the very first mission with more than six planes was the 50th Kamikaze mission launched... the first 49 Kamikaze missions are all six planes or less.

Conspicuous by their absence are these "1,500 plane sorties" that you mention. I suspect that you are talking about regional air operations that took place over several days... or even several weeks... composed of dozens of missions from several different bases.

Could you give me the exact date of one of these 1,500 plane missions, and I'll look it up and tell you what it actually represents? Or just quote me the sources you are using...

EDIT: Just a follow-up detail... the entire Kikusui (Floating Chrysanthemum) operation, lasting from April 6th until June 22nd... more than ten weeks... and comprising 94 seperate Kamikaze missions... involved less than 1,500 aircraft.

1,465 to be precise... 860 Navy aircraft and 605 Army aircraft.

That's an average of about 15 aircraft per mission. That's a higher average that the "typically six per mission" figure that I quoted earlier... but the Kikusui were, as you know, the peak of the mass Suicide operations... they were not just typical Kamikaze operations.

 

[unmerged(25936)]

Operation Kikusui. You are correct in saying they were "regional operations", but this isn't a game of dogfights. While a single wing maybe only 6 planes, the actual attack proper was composed of many actual wings designed to overtake and overwhelm air defenses.

So while your list may list an individual attack on a specific ship as composed of only a few planes, you should check the dates of the attacks.

In specific, back to Operation Kikusui, admittly it was 10 "Kikusui"'s launched over a 2 month period, each with up to 350 planes each, but that could easily be represented as 10 units if so chosen. On the whole, in a one year period Onishi sent almost 4000 pilots to their death.

If the game were to represent Kamikaze's obviously it would represent them in the manner used at Okinawa as that represents the full development of the tactic as a strategic as well as tactical weapon.

 

[unmerged(59662)]

What about using them as a sort of disposable brigade unit? Using an entire aircraft squadron seems ludicrous, and to many of the Japanese it was exactly that (especially early in the war). Maybe enable an event in 1943/4 as to whether to use them (+5 aircraft in Tokyo, Kure, Iwo Jima or +10 brigades, +20 Morale) or deny them entirely (+5% MaxOrg and +5 Morale).

Make the brigades available to anyone who has lost over half their national provinces and maybe penalize democracies who use them with +1 dissent per use or something. Make them do 5x normal damage but you lose the brigade with each attack successful or not.

 

[blue emu]

So while your list may list an individual attack on a specific ship as composed of only a few planes, you should check the dates of the attacks.

I have done so.

My list does not track individual attacks on specific ships. It tracks combat take-offs from specific Japanese bases... the very definition of "sortie".

The largest group of planes to be used in any of the Kikusui was that 107 plane group that I already mentioned... on April 6th, launched from Kanoya airbase, against targets SE of the Ryukus.

Your figure of 350 aircrraft is obviously a composite figure that refers to the combined total of operations on April 6th and April 7th (added together), against five different target areas, hundreds of miles apart, launched in five seperate waves over a two day period. There is no other time period that even approaches a figure of 350 aircraft. Only one (again, a two-day period, April 12-13th) is even half of that.

These are not "sorties" and they are not "swamping the defense"... unless it takes the Americans two days to reload their guns...

In specific, back to Operation Kikusui, admittly it was 10 "Kikusui"'s launched over a 2 month period, each with up to 350 planes each...

Excuse me... didn't you just accuse ME of being misleading?

Out of the whole 10-week period, there was only one set of operations that exceeded 185 planes... and you have to add two days operations together to get even that much. April 6th PLUS April 7th gives you your 350 planes... but they were sent against five different target areas seperated by hundreds of miles, several hours apart.

... but that could easily be represented as 10 units if so chosen. On the whole, in a one year period Onishi sent almost 4000 pilots to their death.

Mostly as a trickle of a few planes here and a dozen there. The Kikusui were very unusual, and even they were not sent in 350 plane waves, as you seem to believe.

If the game were to represent Kamikaze's obviously it would represent them in the manner used at Okinawa as that represents the full development of the tactic as a strategic as well as tactical weapon.

Sure... and even there, they are below the granularity-level of the game. The largest wave of Kamikazes that ever were launched against the same target area on the same day was 107 aircraft. And that happened once.

 

[unmerged(25936)]

Out of the whole 10-week period, there was only one set of operations that exceeded 185 planes... and you have to add two days operations together to get even that much. April 6th PLUS April 7th gives you your 350 planes... but they were sent against five different target areas seperated by hundreds of miles, several hours apart.

If you consider 350 planes launched into the same sea zone (the one around Okinawa) over the course of 2 days to be to much to represent by an air unit in the game then *shrugs* I guess there you go. But your figures I'm sure clearly represent the use of "waves" when viewed from an overarching perspective rather then "steady drips" during the peak times of the Kamikaze attacks, that is April - June when the strategy was fully developed and applied.

If you want to continue to argue nuts and bolts in order to win the arguement, neat, have fun. You understand my point however and, I believe, also realize my point is quite correct. When the Kamikaze attacks were fully developed and implemented, they did so in "wave" fashion which could be respresented, if one chose, in HoI2. (whether you should or not is a seperate question)

Cheers

 

[EvilSanta]

I throught they arent in game for same reason concetration camps and terror bombig arent. I find it perfectly ok the way it is now.

 

[KILLER BOB]

I throught they arent in game for same reason concetration camps and terror bombig arent. I find it perfectly ok the way it is now.

I completly agree, there is no need for suicide bombers (no need to be japanese) in this game. However, if you had to represent them with this game engine, i would think to represent them with a rocket type model. 1 shot-dead

 

[binTravkin]

I am amazed at those two great historians shooting facts at each other not backed by any links to sources..

Undertakings of 300 planes, even more so 1500 planes should be mentioned somewhere in the Internet, or one could assume, there were none such..

 

[unmerged(5892)]

They were represented in HOI1 CORE.

I always found them overpowered there, and a trifle out of place.

Personally I tend to think that there is little need to fashion an air unit that represents a fairly insignificant element of the war that was limited to a fraction of the japanese air wing in the latter stages of the Pacific war, and an exceedinly insignificant number of German aircraft in 45.

If you want to represent Kamikazi's - set your air units mission settings to 0%. You'll get the immense satisfaction of seeing your units disintegrate, and you may achieve the same result they did historically - damage some capital ships, and if you're really, really lucky - you might just sink 1 DD flotilla. Naval bombers are good enough already - we need anything but a newer, better, 'uber' naval bomber - one use or not.

In a game as abstracted as HOI2, and which crucially plays at the strategic level, there's little need IMHO to have Kamikazee's, snipers, 'SS' or similar criminal units and suchlike.

If you want to look at units that were represented at brigade or division strength, which are missing from HOI2, there are better candidates out there.

Edit: In regards to Blue Emu and LSSpam's discussion, my readings tend to place the actual deployment and use of Kamikaze's somewhere in between. The Leyte Gulf-Lingayan operations as only one example, saw more than 200 planes fly in 1 day (January 2nd) against US shippings in what in HOI2 terms would probably comprise 1 seazone. However, the main issue for me remains that this was the exception, rather than the rule. There were certainly many, many more examples of small raids of Kamikazes rather than large, but there were certainly more larger scale raids than Blue Emu alludes to.

As for sources, I take this example from Spectors 'Eagle Against the Sun'

 

[unmerged(60756)]

I agree with the most guys here, that there´s no need in HoI for Kamikazes.
Obvioulsy these units were used by desperate dictators (historically Japanese and Germans) only, which knew that their war was lost and tried to turn the tide this way...

For Units on Brigadelevel I think special forces are missing.
Soldiers like the Commands or Brandenburger.
They would be fun stuff I think, sneaking through enemy lines and capture bridges/cross roads or blow up planes/supplies - things like that.
Might be too much micro-management for a game like HoI, but helpfull by giving the players new tactical options.


But those units were used by the major nations only.
Commands (including the Long Range Desert Group) - Brits
Rangers - US
SAS - French (though commanded by british officers)
NKWD - SU
Division Brandenburg z.B.V. 800 - Germans

So I ask myself:
Who would spend several hours/days/weeks on programming and balancing those units/tech trees, if they´re used by a couple of nations only?
No one I guess...

 

[unmerged(51251)]

I throught they arent in game for same reason concetration camps and terror bombig arent. I find it perfectly ok the way it is now.

I don't see how you can make that comparison at all.

Obvioulsy these units were used by desperate dictators (historically Japanese and Germans) only, which knew that their war was lost and tried to turn the tide this way...

Historically the Japanese and the Germans only because they were loosing. Theres nothing to say that if America was to be in danger of invasion of the mainland that such tactics would not be resorted to, and I would be damn proud of those that did.

 

[unmerged(51251)]

But those units were used by the major nations only.
Commands (including the Long Range Desert Group) - Brits
Rangers - US
SAS - French (though commanded by british officers)
NKWD - SU
Division Brandenburg z.B.V. 800 - Germans

I don't think they were limited to those nations alone. Japan had numerous small imfamous Jungle Fighting groups and Italy had the frogmen. However you can point to numerous units that were only used by major powers such as the Aircraft Carrier and the Strategic Bomber. I think its a great idea to include special forces. They could be added to the Infantry Tech Tree, perhaps becoming available after 39' or 41' infantry. They would be a brigade give a slight org and soft attack and significant Morale benifit to the division it would be attached to. It could only be attached to Infantry, Mountain, Marines and Paratroops though.

 

[unmerged(5892)]

Special forces such as Rangers, Commandoes, etc were not deployed in Division or Brigade strength. They are hardly suitable for a game of this size.

Perhaps, at a stretch, one could argue ski-troops could be represented at Brigade level, but IMHO these kinds of 'specialist' units are best represented by doctrinal differences. Elements such as suprise, night attack, etc are far more suitable modifiers which are already in the game.