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unmerged(9119)

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2 questions.


How mutch civil wars japan had???
and how won it????

also when was the last civil war???


If somebody could show some maps with the information. I would be very thankfull.


This is just curiosity...
 

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You have quite hard questions. I think you should try this website at the beginning. I recall about five civil wars from Japan from the year 1000 to 1867.

The most famous Japanese "civil war" time was Sengoku Jidai period from 1467 to 1600 when there were a complete anarchy in Japan. Finally the Tokugawas united Japan. They were ousted from the power in 1867 and Japan begun industrilization process.
 

Aetius

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Before Sengoku jidai the Kanto Bakufu rebelled against the Muromachi Bakufu, before that Ashikaga rebelled against Godaigo emperor. Before that was the era of two Imperial courts, and before that you had the war between the Taira and Minamoto clan. At the end Tokugawa era there was a rebellion against the Tokugawas, followed by a Tokugawa rebellion against the Emperor (in the form of guerilla warfare) Not sure when the anti-emperor resistance was quelled.

In short lots and lots of civil wars...
 

Intosh

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Except the two mongols invasion and the Hideyoshi invasion of Korea, all of the wars fighting by the Japanase were civil wars.

Until the Japanese-Chinese war of 1895 of course and the numerous aggression wars, the militaristic Japan began in the 20th century.

Don't forget the numerous wars against the Ainous, which can be compared to the Indians Wars for the USA, when a more advanced people push the Frontier and the native people toward a land when nobody can normally survived (Hokkaïdo island).
 

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The Ainu's fate is a bit similar to Sami and to the Indians, they have been incorporated the Japanese nation both by force and by joining the Japanese genepool, just like the Koreans and Ryukyuans.
 

unmerged(9422)

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Hi!


I can tell of Japanese civil wars to you. :) Interesting thread. And, sorry.. I don't know of any online maps for this right now that come to mind.. :(

Well, in ancient times there were wars in Japan, and the Yamato unified much of central Japan in these wars, and founded the Empire of Japan and the Yamato ruler Jimmu became the first Emperor, Jimmu, 2,663 years ago. It is he who the modern Emperors of Japan are descended from.

For a time, during the first millenium C.E. times, the Empire controlled several small coastal areas on the Korean mainland. Eventually Korean cavalrymen defeated the Japanese there. These were not civil wars. Also during this time though, there was some disorder in the Imperial Courts. Perhaps Battle of Jinshin could be considered "civil wars".

About 900 years ago, there was the Gempei Wars between Heike and Genji clans which was civil war. Also there was Heiji and Hogen Wars before Gempei War. All of these were mainly between the two most influential warrior families, the Heike and Genji. The Heike were defeated in Gempei Wars at Dan no Ura, and Minamoto Yoshitsune, a great Genji general (Probably the most popular in the war, followed by Heike Tomomori), was forced to commit seppuku, because his brother Yoritomo was jealous of his fame. Yoritomo was proclaimed Seii Taishougun and his family ruled Japan from their capital of Kamakura.

Soon, however, they died out and the Hojo Clan, who was closely related to them, became the new Shouguns. In the years 1274 and 1281, the Mongols led by Kublai Khan invaded Japan. Many of their men were defeated in navy by the "divine wind" ( kamikaze ) and the ones who landed were defeated. These were also not civil wars. However, from these wars, the samurai became discontented: No new land was conquered. So, samurai could not be payed their land. There was unrest, and then during the 1300's, there was civil war, and the Ashikaga Shougunate was founded. During their rule, there was peace. And also contact and trade with China and Korea and mainland of Asia.

During the Ashikaga Bakufu (Shougunate)'s rule, the daimyo around the country became very powerful. They were not limited in their army sizes, etc. So, they became more and more powerful, and bakufu became weaker and weaker. Finally, the Onin War began. This was a civil war. In the end, Kyoto was destroyed, the Ashikaga Bakufu shown to be quite weak, and the daimyo very powerful.

The "Warring States Era" (Sengoku Jidai) began, and until 1603, there was much civil war around Japan. This is the most famous of civil war periods and the largest. Oda Nobunaga, Toyotomi Hideyoshi, and Tokugawa Ieyasu were three of the most important men of this era.

Oda Nobunaga used many guns traded with the Europeans, and won great victories over his enemies. He conquered Kyoto and defeated the Ashikaga Bakufu, and defeated the Imagawa family, and was invading the Mori lands. But, he was killed by Akechi Mitsuhide, a traitor.

Toyotomi Hideyoshi was born a peasant. His father had no home. Hidyoshi became a peasant soldier (ashigaru) and quickly became a general of Oda's armies and the favorite of Oda Nobunaga. He was leading the Oda armies fighting against the Mori clan, and turned back when he heard of Oda Nobunaga's death. He defeated Akechi Mitsuhide, and became ruler of the Oda lands. He defeated the Hojo and other main ememies.

Then Hideyoshi invaded Korea. This was not a civil war. It is thought several reasons why he may have done this. Some think he wanted to impress the daimyo. Some of which would not let a peasant be their ruler. Some also think he was trying to distract them from revolting and getting them to fight a new enemy. In Korea, the Ming Empire assisted the Koreans. Hideyoshi's forces won many victories in Korea, but in the end Koreans naval blockaded Japanese supplies and were successful. This led to defeat. He later attempted to invade again, but then died.

Tokugawa Ieyasu next began to fight. He had promised Hideyoshi that he would ensure Hideyoshi's only son became next ruler, but then Tokugawa went against his rivals. He now saw his chance to take control and even win the wars and unite Japan. He fought against his rivals, and won the battle of Sekigahara against them. This was the largest battle fought in Japan.

In 1603, Tokugawa became Shougun of Japan, and his family ruled until 1868. During this time, there was mostly peace. Only few times was there unrest, and that was little. However, during the 1800's, there was famine in Osaka and much disorder was there.

In the 1860's, the Meiji Revolution began, and there was civil war then against the Tokugawa Bakufu. In the next years, there was disorder and unhappiness by some against the new Constitutional Monarchy government, but eventually, by about the end of Emperor Mutshito's (Meiji's) reign, this disorder ended.


I hope that my post helped. :)


Meiji-Tenno
 

w_mullender

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Originally posted by Meiji-Tenno
In the 1860's, the Meiji Revolution began, and there was civil war then against the Tokugawa Bakufu. In the next years, there was disorder and unhappiness by some against the new Constitutional Monarchy government, but eventually, by about the end of Emperor Mutshito's (Meiji's) reign, this disorder ended.
You seem to be a walking encyclopedia on japanese history;), so I will ask you a question about this part
This 1860's wars, was this where the "peasant" armies with guns were introduced and with the "last stand of the samurai"?
Sorry if I am not quite clear, but I have to translate from a indo-dutch source to english.
 

unmerged(9523)

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In Japan there were also various instances where the monks (centered mainly in Nara, I think) attemted to sieze power, at least in their regions. The temples were exempt from taxes under many of the emperors, so they developed huge complexes and generated their own income. Eventually they began training some of their monks in military matters. There were also large groups of religious hermit-like warriors (called yamahoshi or yamabushi, I think) who formed their own small militaries. They caused unrest mainly from the tenth to the seventeenth century. All these religious groups mainly staged small uprisings or took part in existing conflicts. I don't think they were responsible for any civil wars, but it's another interesting aspect of the conflicts in Japan. Various warlords tried to end these religious groups, but did not totally succeed. When Tokugawa came to power, he took much of the land back from the temple complexes, as well as razed the temples and reduced the religious clergy in areas such as Nara.
 

Aetius

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Originally posted by w_mullender
You seem to be a walking encyclopedia on japanese history;), so I will ask you a question about this part
This 1860's wars, was this where the "peasant" armies with guns were introduced and with the "last stand of the samurai"?
Sorry if I am not quite clear, but I have to translate from a indo-dutch source to english.

The "last stand" of the Samurai was a rebellion, led by Saigo Takamori, of the Satsuma based reformers against the Choshu reformers in 1877. Choshu had refused the Satsuma idea of invading Korea and had proposed a "peasant" army, which was against the Satsuma idea of a Samurai army.

The 1860s stuff is pro-Shogunate guerillas fighting the reformist goverment.
 

unmerged(9422)

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Originally posted by Craig
In Japan there were also various instances where the monks (centered mainly in Nara, I think) attemted to sieze power, at least in their regions. The temples were exempt from taxes under many of the emperors, so they developed huge complexes and generated their own income. Eventually they began training some of their monks in military matters. There were also large groups of religious hermit-like warriors (called yamahoshi or yamabushi, I think) who formed their own small militaries. They caused unrest mainly from the tenth to the seventeenth century. All these religious groups mainly staged small uprisings or took part in existing conflicts. I don't think they were responsible for any civil wars, but it's another interesting aspect of the conflicts in Japan. Various warlords tried to end these religious groups, but did not totally succeed. When Tokugawa came to power, he took much of the land back from the temple complexes, as well as razed the temples and reduced the religious clergy in areas such as Nara.

Mmmm, good information about the warrior monks. The Japanese name is Yamabushi. That means Mountain Warrior. Also they are called Sohei, Priest Soldier. Yes, you are correct, many's lands did not have to pay taxes to the government. Nobles began to own such private lands as well, and during the Heian Period is when this began to happen quite a bit and much land became not having to pay taxes. Oda Nobunaga also often fought against the warrior monks. His wars against the monks such as at Mount Hiei are famous. Also, during the time of Heike no Kiyomori (in 1000's and 1100's for years), the monks of Mount Hiei and Nara fought against eachother.

Meiji-Tenno
 

Drakken

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BTW Meiji, I want to do an historical samurai campaign using L5R's rules. I want to start it at just after the battle of Okehazama. Do you know some good websites about the aftermath of this battle among the surrounding warlords, besides Tokugawa's independance?

Drakken
 

unmerged(9422)

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Originally posted by Drakken
BTW Meiji, I want to do an historical samurai campaign using L5R's rules. I want to start it at just after the battle of Okehazama. Do you know some good websites about the aftermath of this battle among the surrounding warlords, besides Tokugawa's independance?

Drakken

Hmm.. I am sorry I haven't replied to your question before: I didn't see it until today! I am sorry... :(

I do not know of any websites, unfortunately, with that information. :( In that battle though, it is when Nobunaga began to be considered and to become a very powerful daimyo. I found this website, and some others about the battle, but not much of aftermath in websites. Probably you could find books on the subject too. :)


Meiji-Tenno
 

Erwin Rommel

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The Ainu's fate is a bit similar to Sami and to the Indians, they have been incorporated the Japanese nation both by force and by joining the Japanese genepool, just like the Koreans and Ryukyuans.
Koreans were incorporated to Japanese genepool? Where did you get the idea from? Extreme Japanese nationalists? Koreans and Japnese are two different ethnic groups. They have very different root. Koreans share same root with Mongols and Japanese do not. And Koreans were never incorporated to Japanese genepool. 36 years of Japanese rule was not enough time to eradicate Korean genepool and Japanese never attempted to do so.


For a time, during the first millenium C.E. times, the Empire controlled several small coastal areas on the Korean mainland. Eventually Korean cavalrymen defeated the Japanese there.
That's what Japanese historians insist. They do not have any solid evidence about their claims. Accoring to Korean historians Japan never controlled any areas of Korean main land at that time and never did until 20th century. On the contrary, Japan was under strong influence of Paikche which was one of three Korean kingdoms who occupied Korean peninsula and Manchuria at that time. It is strongly supported by archaeological findings. Even current Japanese emperor acknowledged he has some Korean blood in him. Does this support Japanese were incorporated to Korean genepool?:p
 
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Aetius

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Originally posted by Erwin Rommel
Koreans were incorporated to Japanese genepool? Where did you get the idea from? Extreme Japanese nationalists? Koreans and Japnese are two different ethnic groups. They have very different root. Koreans share same root with Mongols and Japanese do not. And Koreans were never incorporated to Japanese genepool. 36 years of Japanese rule was not enough time to eradicate Korean genepool and Japanese never attempted to do so.
Well, since the Japanese imperial family is Korean in origin (if you believe the Emperor) , you can't say they were the only ones to move in at the time, the Yamato culture was an extention of the Korean southern Kingdom (if it was Paeche I can't remember). A large number of Koreans also stuck in Japan after the closure of the country in the 17th century were pretty much stuck in Japan, they merged with the population somehow. AFAIK the Japanese are a mixture of a Okinawan, Korean and Ainu. The Koreans being the last to be added in the mix, sometime AD. And saying that they are different ethnic groups avoids inconvenient things like big similarities in language between Japanese, Korean and Mongolian, and small things like similarities in eating customs (the korean style and Japanese style being very similar, but very different from Chinese style). Koreans and Japanese find it very easy to learn each others languages

I would say prior to the Koreans moving in this it is pretty pointless to talk about "Japanese" since the idea didn't really exist. A bit like talking about being English before the Germanic Angles and Saxons arrived and possibly the Norman French (which are probably a good approximation of the role of the Koreans in Japan). :)
 
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Erwin Rommel

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Well, since the Japanese imperial family is Korean in origin (if you believe the Emperor) , you can't say they were the only ones to move in at the time, the Yamato culture was an extention of the Korean southern Kingdom (if it was Paeche I can't remember). A large number of Koreans also stuck in Japan after the closure of the country in the 17th century were pretty much stuck in Japan, they merged with the population somehow.
OK I overreacted. I thought you were talking about Koreans as a whole. Korean as a whole is a different ethnic group than Japanese as I said before, but I gotta admit that Koreans and Japanese are mixed together in some degree. So, in other word Koreans have some Japanese blood in them and Japanese have some Korean blood in them.
And, actually it is not clear if Japanese imperial family is Korean in origin, but you can definately find some Korean in their genealogy table. So it is believed that the royal family of Paikche and imperial family of Japan had some blood relation.
AFAIK the Japanese are a mixture of a Okinawan, Korean and Ainu. The Koreans being the last to be added in the mix, sometime AD.
I wouldn't be so definitive. I admit that Okinawan and Ainu were incorporated to Japanese genepool and a lot of Koreans immigrated to Japan from ancient through modern times but actually nobody exactly knows where Japanese came from.
General agreement is that in prehistoric time Korean penisula and Japanese main land were connected, so first inhanitants of Japan came from Northern China through Korea. But also there is also possiblity that they came from South via sea.
And saying that they are different ethnic groups avoids inconvenient things like big similarities in language between Japanese, Korean and Mongolian, and small things like similarities in eating customs (the korean style and Japanese style being very similar, but very different from Chinese style). Koreans and Japanese find it very easy to learn each others languages
I agree that Korean and Japanese are very close languages. They are like English and German, or may be closer. However it does not necessarily prove that they are from same ethnic origin.
I don't think eating custom of Korean and Japan is similar. Actually they have very different. Korean food use a lot of garlic and red pepper. A lot of them are fermented. Japanese usually do not use those and rarely eat fermented food.
I would say prior to the Koreans moving in this it is pretty pointless to talk about "Japanese" since the idea didn't really exist. A bit like talking about being English before the Germanic Angles and Saxons arrived and possibly the Norman French (which are probably a good approximation of the role of the Koreans in Japan).
I agree and I find that Jimmu Meiji-Tenno talking about is a mythological character. Scholars generally agree that Yamato era started approximately 300 A.D.
 

Aetius

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The Japanese of course don't eat as spicy food, but as I said there are subtle similarities: food is always served with many small dishes (unlike the chinese). Another interesting thing is that they both sit on the floor at home (unlike the chinese). Japanese shamanism (shinto) is also IMO quite similar to Korean shamanism. A comparison between the Koreans and the Japanese usually gives a long list of such things.

I believe there are two main views of the origin of the Japanese:
1. Its a mystery (within Japan)
2. They mainly come from Korea (the Yamato) (anthropologists in Japan and ROTW)

The only problem is that the mainstream press or publishers are either afraid of rightwing groups or allied to them.

This is moving very far from the original topic though... :)
 

Erwin Rommel

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The Japanese of course don't eat as spicy food, but as I said there are subtle similarities: food is always served with many small dishes (unlike the chinese). Another interesting thing is that they both sit on the floor at home (unlike the chinese). Japanese shamanism (shinto) is also IMO quite similar to Korean shamanism. A comparison between the Koreans and the Japanese usually gives a long list of such things.
Yeah, that's true. But, I have to point that there are also subtle differences.
1) Koreans use spoon. Japanese and Chinese do not. They only use chop sticks.
2) Koreans share food except rice and soup. In other word they do not use individual plate except rice and soup. Japanese always use individual plate for every food.

Korean shamanism is very similiar with that of mongols. They have root in Scythian shamanism. It is very possible that Japanese received it from Koreans as they did for Chinese letters and Buddhism.

Yeah, it's deviating far from original post. But I'm glad someone found it very interesting.:)
 

Aetius

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The Scythian connection I have always found very fascinating. I read in some very old linguist books that some people believe that Japanese and Korean are quite similar to Turkic languages, so according to this theory you have arc streching from Turkey through central Asia and Mongolia to Japan and Korea. If this is true or not I really don't know since I know very little of how Turkic languages actually work.
I know that Japanese, Mongolian and Korean are very similar, since the different peoples have little difficulty in learning each others languages. I know several Japanese that have learnt Mongolian and Korean, who claim that they are very closely related, even if the words themselves are somewhat different. Unfortunately I don't know the Japanese take on Turkish which would be rather interesting to read.

Re Spoons
It really depends on what they are eating, if they eat fried rice for instance both the Chinese and the Japanese do use ceramic spoons.

Re Sharing food
This is more a matter of circumstance, if you eat a "fixed" personal lunch set you get a "personal" plates, even in Korea.
If you eat in a Japanese home or in a "Izakaya", which is a hybrid of a bar and a restaurant, you definately share food in Japan. In general the rule is to have "central" plates that you lift food from and then put on your own plates. This is common to the Chinese, Japanese and Korean eating habits. The main difference between the Koreans and Japanese on one side and the Chinese on the other side are the pickles you get with the food. Of course in Korean you get Kimchi often as a "pickle" but the other pickles you get in Korea are very similar to the "Tsukemono" you get in Japan. These I have never seen in China or in Chinese restaurants outside Japan.