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If you declare war on Japan you stop being a vassal, so the annexation is canceled. What happens then depends on how the war ends.
If you lose the war you go back to being a vassal. But then Japan has to wait another 10 years before they can annex you again.
If you fully annex Japan, and it is the War for the Emperor casus belli (which I think is the only casus belli you have available even if they have one of your cores), you will become Shogun, your country will change to Japan and you will gain Japanese ideas. And Japan's vassals will become yours. However since Japan annexed Yamana they are probably too big to fully annex so you will have to cut them down.
If you only take a couple of provinces instead of fully annexing them, you go back to being their vassal, but they will have to wait another 10 years to annex you.
Nice work. My last Uesegi game I went bankrupt during this phase as Japan started to annex which was the end, though it was close. I'd say pray to your ancestors for another Discipline advisor, spam loans, and merc up for the Total War of the century. Once Japan is yours you will have the requisite 15 years of peace to pay them off.
Thanks for the breakdown of the consequences! Very good to know.
So is this going to be showdown at noon with Japan?
You could indeed say that!
Nice
I'm a combination of nervous and thrilled at the possibilities.
Planning on doing all of that, definitely!
So, I'm going to dive in here soon. If Japan doesn't concentrate -- or concentrates against Otomo -- I like my chances. If they concentrate against me... that's a whole other ball game.
Japan diploannexed Yamana. Totally caught me by surprise, too!
I'm going to try to have an update up for you folks either tomorrow or Sunday.
Chapter 4: When daimyos collide!
In preparation for the conflict to come, I took a look at the military advisors, only to discover that the only one I could afford gave a boost to fort defense. Instead, I went with giant stacks of loans and all the mercenaries I could handle. My mercenaries being raised, I chose March 1476 for the launching point. Here is the initial setup of forces.
The initial split, there, was to destroy the Hatakeyama army while still keeping a token force behind in case of Japanese attack. However, I abandoned that strategy quickly when I saw that the Japanese armies wouldn’t consolidate. Here’s the tale of the tape, as it were.
To my surprise and delight, the Japanese armies not only did not consolidate to attack me or Otomo, they actually split up! I was quick to attack one of the offending stacks.
As long time readers know, I am invariably conservative in war making, and I am no different, initially, in this war. Then this happened:
Some background, first. My goal here was to pick off another smaller Japanese stack; the 14,000 stack was not revealed until I had committed. I paused for a few moments and considered the possibilities. I was quite severely outnumbered now, obviously. However, there was a chance I could still wipe out this stack before the new one arrived, and even if I didn’t, I should still inflict some serious casualties. I also suspected my edge in military tech would help. This was the result.
Once again, I am in awe of how powerful military tech 4 is. The fact that Japan had no defensive advantage – no rivers, and I got a bit of a break with the draw, as Settsu is something like 52-48 forest/plains. (My understanding is a random die roll determines which terrain “wins”, in a manner of speaking.) Still, that was a wholly salutary result. The follow up in Musashi was a victory too, but the river and terrain there acted against me and I took some serious casualties. I decided to move onto Kyoto and begin my siege there. I won that siege in March 1477. Japan and Hakeyama had built up a force of 17,000 troops (to my 13,000) in Kyoto. The result was another victory.
The story at sea was rather different.
This is entirely my fault – I’d forgotten I’d put my fleet on patrol for trade prior to the war. In August, Otomo moved from the far western island onto the “main island”, if you will. They slowly started working on the fortress at Suo. I was in Mino, while the Japanese army tried to retake Kyoto. In January 1478, Mino fell, and I attacked. Two battles later, the Japanese army had entirely vanished.
The war, at this point, became siege warfare. By August, with a war score of 56% (and climbing), I took a look at the surrender interface, only to find that a) I’d need 164% warscore to annex all of Japan and b) according to the tooltip, Japan could not have any vassals at that stage. I decided to make the most of it. In September, I picked up diplo 4. By May 1479, all of Japan was occupied, and a peace signed.
Muasashi was my core, Mino would isolate Kyoto (perhaps for a future war), and Tajima was just a matter of making a future war a bit easier. More important to me was the money (being so far over limit was quite expensive, not to mention the 40 loans I had) and the independence. (I could not only acquire independence for myself, sadly.) The AE, which was considerable, (as well as our newfound statuses) doubtless prompted this.
In May 1481, Hatakeyama declared war on Japan for “War for the Emperor”, a move I did not anticipate. They could reach Kyoto, but no other Japanese province, without going through me or Otomo. Mino cored in 1482, as did Tajima. My General died in 1483, but was quickly replaced with an acceptable substitute.
1484 would prove to be an interesting year; I had some warning of this move, as a trade embargo and an insult had tipped me off.
Our numbers were roughly equal, and worse still, Otomo had since acquired MIL tech 4. For the moment, Hatakeyama separated us, so all Otomo could do was siege Tajima; their actual war goal was Hitachi. With both of us unable to attack the other, four years passed. Yes, Otomo had Tajima, but without Hitachi, ticking war score worked in my favor, not theirs. In January of 1488, I recognized that my years of loan taking (I’d slowly been paying down on them), coupled with the amount of income I got from gold, had driven my inflation to nearly 20%. I spent some admin points, cutting that to about 10%. In May, Hatakeyama took Kyoto from Japan, got a bit of gold, but remained a vassal. Hatakeyama gave military access to Otomo, and our sides clashed when I attacked.
This was a bad terrain roll more than anything else, coupled with superior numbers for Otomo. It was clear I would need friends, and I found one.
In November, however, I began to realize that, without more spending on mercenaries (and thus loans), I would need to end this war, as I had little to gain from it. I conceded defeat.
Otomo wasted no time in finding a friend of their own.
The one advantage of such allies is that Manchu and Korea would almost certainly focus on one another in a conflict, leaving Otomo and I to settle things ourselves. Naturally, the already profound length of the war would keep our new allies from joining this particular war, but I already know it will not be our last.
To prepare effectively for an eventuality, I needed an economic and military trump card. Say, the highest base tax province in Japan?
Japan is a joke at this point, Hatakeyama not much better, and in 1490 I won. However, Otomo took their own stab at uniting Japan in their name, in the meantime.
A Japan replaced/united by Otomo is a nightmare scenario – they’re the only power on Japan powerful enough to deal with me effectively. While I work to core Kyoto, Otomo wins their war in 1495.
Those new provinces make Otomo more powerful, but thankfully (at least from an economic perspective), Kyoto remains more valuable. With that particular war, Japan is a now an OPM, with another OPM for a vassal. Hatakeyama has three provinces. Here’s the situation, as of 1498.
Now, I’m in a bit of bind. With Japan being an OPM now, there’s a chance that virtually anyone could unite Japan under their banner. If anybody did it but Otomo, I wouldn’t care. Yet Otomo seems to be the most likely suspect. I’ve begun fabricating a claim on Otomo, hoping to use it to then jump Japan right afterwards.
There’s a certain amount of sense in just saying “damn the AE” and taking as much as I can from Otomo in the coming war. I’m down to a scant 22 loans, so I could even leverage some more and merc up again. Then again, that would also drag in Manchu (possibly), and if I’m not certain Korea will answer, that could be bad news.
So here is my predicament. My naval capacity is particularly weak at the moment, but I could probably land a regiment or two on Suo. However, I think it is still impossible to annex Japan, because they have two vassals remaining. At least, so the tool tip would have me believe. My question is this:
Is the tooltip lying? If it is, I’ll annex Japan, take the two vassals, form Japan myself, and then build up to take down Otomo in a more leisurely fashion. If it is telling the truth, then Japan can wait – Otomo is my principal opponent, and I’ll have to attack and weaken them first.
What do you think, dear readAARs?
Well you've knocked Japan down a few pegs. Too bad Otomo has risen up as the new competitor.
I wish I could help you with the Japan dilemma, but I don't know enough about how Japan works in-game.
I wish I could help you with the Japan dilemma, but I don't know enough about how Japan works in-game.
As far as I know, annexing a nation that has vassals and/or personal unions will result in you becoming the new overlord of said vassals and/or unions since one of the newer patches. I have no idea if it's the same with Japan.
The War for the Emperor CB is a bit of a funny one. I have a feeling you may have been able to become Japan at 100% warscore if you'd pushed it. At this point you should be able to annex Japan using the same CB and its vassals will flip to you once you change to Japan.
I think I would try to unify all of Japan. Should make you more powerful than them.
ATTACK! Make those silly Otomoians(i hope) pay for the horrible crime of trying to unite Japan!
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ATTACK! Make those silly Otomoians(i hope) pay for the horrible crime of trying to unite Japan!
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For a moment there, I thought you were actually advocating a DoW on the Ottomans
I agree with everyone else in uniting Japan. If Otomo did it you could get bit in the *generic word for ___* in the future.
For a moment there, I thought you were actually advocating a DoW on the Ottomans
Yep.
I must say that the things I like the best about EUIV is that loans and mercs are much more useful. Two elements of gameplay I hadn't really touched since EUII
I say let Otomo form Japan, give them a sporting chance. Much more fun to be the underdog. Besides, if things go too smoothly, what are you going to do until exploration comes about, prosper peacefully? Hah!
I say let Otomo form Japan, give them a sporting chance. Much more fun to be the underdog. Besides, if things go too smoothly, what are you going to do until exploration comes about, prosper peacefully? Hah!
Not sure what the best strategy is, although I'm wondering what the point of the War for the Emperor CB is if you don't become emperor. Unless that's an option if you get a certain war-score.
I would say fight with Otomo, try and bring them down a little bit so you don't have to worry about them in the future. But anyways, you're doing pretty good, hope you can become emperor!
I would say fight with Otomo, try and bring them down a little bit so you don't have to worry about them in the future. But anyways, you're doing pretty good, hope you can become emperor!