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Avindian

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Pesky Europeans screwing up your colonization efforts. Even in Asia.

You could have simply stopped at "Pesky Europeans" and achieved perfect correctness. :)

Silence has fallen
Japan waits for a good man
To pick up his brush​

Apologies for the absence; that's what happens when the dorm decides you need to move twice in the space of a week. I'll definitely play tonight; can't promise I'll update, but I will play, and update in the next couple of days.

EDIT: I should have an update for you folks Monday or Tuesday; tomorrow is possible at the outside.
 
Last edited:

Avindian

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Chapter 12: To go west is to go east is to go west?


If you are a battle-scarred veteran of EU3, you will recall that Westernization was relatively simple; you simply needed a Western neighbor, the proper leader, and the ability to survive a massive stab hit for a few years. It is a much more gradual process in EU4. All you need is to be 8 tech levels behind a Western neighbor. You both need cores on the neighboring provinces. Thus, in the last chapter, Spain and I having colonies next to each other wasn’t sufficient, because they weren’t cored. It took the province next to Portugal to begin the process.

So, what happens next? Over the next few years, you will have your monarch power drained each month (up to a maximum of 30 per month). Once a certain number is reached (it depends, of course, on where you start, relative to the Western technological group. We need 3200 power in total to gain western units. All else being equal, the process would take a little less than ten years. But units aren’t everything, of course. We really did this for the tech, and here’s the result:

lnto.jpg


Now, if I were to redo this process, I would probably not have spent this power right away. On occasion, during Westernization, you get lovely events like this one:

ra5p.jpg


There are always two choices, both of them bad. One is always a loss of four months of Westernization (that is, 120 points). The other, in this particular event, is -30 legitimacy. I had 92 legitimacy at the moment, so that was not a difficult choice. However, other events can trigger revolts or cost monarch power. Like everything else in strategy games, it’s a matter of making a choice. On the whole, I did everything I could to avoid the loss of progress.

Oh, one other nice benefit of the Westernization occurs immediately:

t7k1.jpg


Moments after Westernizing, Spain embargoes me, because they’re jerks. Portugal also rivals me, which means I’ll never finish my present mission (to get Portuguese relations over +125), so I cancel it. I discover more of the New World (there’s a map at the end of the update of what I know). So, maybe some kind European is giving me maps? If so, I haven’t the foggiest idea who is doing it. Maybe Ulm? I’d like to think duckie is watching out for us.

I can’t quite colonize the New World – I’m a mere four whatevers short in range (is there actually a unit?), but with another tech or an advisor, I’ll be able to do it. I discover, in passing, that I have the most trade power in four Trade Nodes – Nippon, Mexico, Philippines, and Australia – although I’ve yet to discover Mexico and Australia.

In 1639, I start disbanding some Early Carracks to replace them with Carracks. (These Carracks, much like wizards or the patches of Johan, are apparently neither early nor later, but arrive precisely when they mean to.)

Majapahit offers me an alliance, which I accept. I’ve decided to try to diplo-vassalize them, if possible, simply in order to avoid getting AE, since if you recall, Spain is their neighbor.

In 1641, Russia DOWs Ayutthaya with the CB “Overseas Expansion”. This war will come to nothing; Russia starts about a half dozen wars around this period and settles for a concession of defeat in every case. I hire a new Admin advisor (+2% to Missionary Strength). My diplomat dies in 1642. I could choose a colonial range guy, but he’s a +2 advisor, which is out of my price range.

Oh yeah, that’s another way westernization likes to kick unwesternized nations in the naughty bits.

quko.jpg


In 1643, I can choose a new mission – I choose to turn Demak into a city. (You have to love +1 to base tax.) Sulu goes Catholic; Awa follows a few weeks later. This is becoming a bit of a problem, but we’ll discuss that later too.

In 1644, I discover there is something of a shift in Asian politics. Why? Oirat Horde now wants to be my friend. (Probably because Russia keeps attacking for them concessions of defeat.) I decide it would be a fine thing to have them as an ally, so I get an RM. This actually pushes me over the maximum for diplomatic relations, but I can accept that for the time being, until I can absorb Brunei.

In 1645, I pick a new mission: to colonize Banten (which neighbors Demak). There’s a huge revolt in Awa – 17 regiments – and the province reverts to Shinto. (I’m running over budget on screenshots, or I’d show you the event.) In 1646, my army goes to stomp out the revolt, and…

j5sg.jpg


Goodbye, only army I actually had in the Home Islands. Since Westernization is nuking my economy with the advisor costs, I can’t afford to get more. I might actually have to take out loans. I also finish the mission to colonize Banten – now I have to turn it into a city. This event fires, which is kind of nice.

1k42.jpg


That gives me +20 to relations with Portugal, -10 to legitimacy, and +10% to National Tax for 5 years. Might be enough to help me eventually rebuild my army. Awa proves itself even more irritating.

vsmd.jpg


Echigo goes Catholic. (I’m going to stop mentioning these; they happen frequently enough that they’re irritating to write about.) By August 1646, I’m 80% of the way done.

g0x1.jpg


There goes another army. Stupid rebels. This happens in 1648, though:

6ue8.jpg


The difference between a Protectorate and a Vassal is pretty clear. Protectorates help other nations westernize faster, in exchange for foreign policy dominance and trade power. Vassals give you the diplomatic benefits, but it’s more one-sided, as the Vassal also coughs up money from its coffers. I’d prefer Majapahit become a Vassal, but they’re resisting because I’m Shinto.

A few months later…

0xzx.jpg


I hire a Navigator. Japan has reached the New World!

wnz4.jpg


(Oh yeah, I guess there’s a civil war in Brandenburg too. Who cares about them, though?)

I also replace my military advisor, exchanging a dead one for a living one (who gives a bonus to reinforce speed). I start building up an army in Korea, since I had to take the one from Korea to put down the revolt in Japan. Then I get to thinking. They keep expanding. Korea is always expanding. That means I’ll never be able to simply vassalize them. But I could make them a protectorate, with improved relations, which is better than nothing. I de-rival them and send a diplomat to do just that. The goal is to, eventually, pull the army out of Korea permanently. It would be a fine army to conquer the New World, for one.

I get Admin tech 8 in 1651. This fires in early 1652:

9mxd.jpg


Seems the ancestors think I’m doing the right thing too. Works for me! The other part of my “eventually abandon the Asian mainland strategy” comes to fruition.

rq12.jpg


The one thing I don’t want is a united China. That’s the only power in Asia that might give me pause. So the Oirat Horde makes a nice cat’s paw. Plus, if Russia gets uppity, the Horde will play the “waves and waves of men” to my Zapp Brannigan. Russian soldiers have a kill limit, right?

Diplo tech 11 is achieved in August 1652. Not a huge deal, but it does mean I have enough colonial range to go farther in the New World, even without an advisor. I get superb news a bit later.
ljvs.jpg


I get a new mission in 1653, to improve relations with Korea. Pfft, I was doing that anyway. At the end of 1653, I decide to begin absorbing my only remaining vassal.

obe8.jpg


I get military tech 16 at the end of 1654, and an alliance with Korea in 1655. I get a new mission to colonize Whangarei. Originally, I think “maybe I should pick another mission”. Then I took a look at the province.

nz8g.jpg


I couldn’t load up troops fast enough. In 1655, Haida becomes a full fledged province, and I DOW the Shoshone. I’m leaving the war out because, well, it’s dull and easy. I do colonize the New Zealand province – the new mission is to improve prestige, which works for me, since the reward is a rare +1 to stability. I get admin 9 in 1656 – good for a 10% boost to production efficiency, and one step closer to a new group of ideas. Diplo 12 follows in 1657.

We close this update in 1658 with my victory and annexation of the Shoshone. I give you, a reasonably complete picture of the New World!

fmge.jpg


Here’s a map of Asia.

7u89.jpg


Finally, Europe.

x9sx.jpg


Another update with no ships sinking! :eek:

So, I have one question and important choice to make. My question is: in order to form a colonial nation, I need five cored provinces, correct? Are there any other requirements? I have no real desire to conquer North America myself; I’d rather let “New Japan” do that (and possibly preempt the invention of professional wrestling, as compared with OTL.)

My choice is the next group of ideas. I’ve got it narrowed down to three – Religious, Naval, and Quality. Right now, I’m at about 72% religious unity. I actually kind of want to convert to Catholic (partly for fun, but partly to make it easier to find a friendly European power at some stage), but as far as I now that’s not possible. In any case, without religious ideas, either converting all of the Catholics or converting everything from Shinto to Catholic will be tricky. Naval is obvious. Quality helps ships and soldiers.

I’ve also briefly considered Expansionism, Offensive, and Innovative, but apart from Innovative, none of those seem to be pressing. I’m leaning towards Religious at the moment, but I’m curious to hear what you folks think. Am I perhaps overstating the danger of a disunited religious establishment? I also have to consider that using an admin group means I will much more slowly get through the admin tech group, which I am quite far behind in.
 

misterbean

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I'd go for quality. Let your other techs catch up. Your admin tech will go up very quickly, which will open up another idea group anyway, so definitely don't get an admin group yet.

I agree.
 

misterbean

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At least this time, Japan won't have to wait until the 19th century to do it. Nice update.
 

tnick0225

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I'd go for quality. Let your other techs catch up. Your admin tech will go up very quickly, which will open up another idea group anyway, so definitely don't get an admin group yet.

Yeah agreed.

I made the mistake of taking an admin idea as my first, and it set me back trying to catch up on admin tech.

I wonder what a Japanese Colonial nation would be called. Other than that another good update Avindian! Must get annoying having to put up with all those rebellions that sprout up during the westernization process.
 

Idhrendur

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I suspected the duck wasn't entirely to be trusted. But then it's not harming Ulm and is helping you so I guess it's all good.

And I have no clue about ideas, I'm afraid. I'm still focused on EU3 mechanics for some time, with only an occasional foray into EU4.
 

beartjah

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That new world seems to look a bit filled already, or is it just me?

Also, I think expansion might actually be a good choice, You'll be able to colonize faster, and if colonization fails to give a large profit, you can always use that cb to expand in asia. But it might be that I haven't really used naval, so I might be wrong on it's use compared to the others...
 

Michaelangelo

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Those Europeans have been busy. Looks like there's slim pickings for Japan in the New World. Maybe they haven't touched that island in the southwest part yet.

As everyone has said, military ideas are always a good choice. The religious ideas do have that nice relations boost if you complete them all though.
 

vranasm

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i think the colonial nation forms after you have 5 colonies in the same region. I remember when they first did it that i had spain game going on and had at point 3 colonies in north part of south america even if I already had like 6 colonial nations in other parts of the america.

just to point out... not sure current state, but colonial nations have some big problems colonizing the rest of america, either they have some direct malus, or it was at some point bugged (maybe fixed now). And overall their play is unimpressive even for AI standard eventhough they get the same techs you have at the point where they form and I think they share the same idea groups you had when they formed.
 

beartjah

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i think the colonial nation forms after you have 5 colonies in the same region. I remember when they first did it that i had spain game going on and had at point 3 colonies in north part of south america even if I already had like 6 colonial nations in other parts of the america.

just to point out... not sure current state, but colonial nations have some big problems colonizing the rest of america, either they have some direct malus, or it was at some point bugged (maybe fixed now). And overall their play is unimpressive even for AI standard eventhough they get the same techs you have at the point where they form and I think they share the same idea groups you had when they formed.

To be more precise: 5 provinces with cores.

The colonization speed is WAD as far as I know. They have rather large penalties to it (their colonies just grow slower). And I think they take the same idea groups as your country would if ai controled (so the japanese colonial nations aren't going to colonize at all...)
 

JanBDim

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Putting your westernization to good use I see. Now it's just a matter of grabbing as many New World provinces as you can. I spy an empty continent in the southwest on your map, I say go for it ;)

As for a proper Idea Group, I agree with the commenters above me that an admin group is probably a bad idea right now. As for Quality; Europe is far away and your neighbours will soon be much weaker than you, so improving your army isn't a top priority. Being an island nation and having a long, proud tradition of glorious naval defeats, I'd definitely go for Naval.
 

macd21

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As for a proper Idea Group, I agree with the commenters above me that an admin group is probably a bad idea right now. As for Quality; Europe is far away and your neighbours will soon be much weaker than you, so improving your army isn't a top priority. Being an island nation and having a long, proud tradition of glorious naval defeats, I'd definitely go for Naval.

His Dip tech is pretty far behind at the moment. Taking Quality allows him to improve his navy by letting his tech go up (which will lead to better ships) and from the ideas that give a boost to naval combat. He can then take Naval when his Dip tech has caught up. There's also the fact that if he starts colonising the New World he's inevitably going to end up skirmishing with the European colonies, so better troops would definitely be handy.
 

Willum

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Japanese <Name of the Colonial Region>. Only Historical Colonies like New England or Nouvelle-Flandres get their custom names.

From the dev diary on colonial nations:

Example, if Britain colonizes Eastern American you get the Thirteen Colonies while a French colony in the same region might be called Nouvelle Flandre. We have added quite a few alternatives for likely and not so likely colonizers, with Jadida Granada perhaps not appearing in all our games (even though it did appear in our office MP with Johan playing Morocco )
I don't know if Japan is among the not so likely colonizers though.
 

Davout

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Our new Western eyes
Peer through rising autumn mist
Seek Quality first​
 

Avindian

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I'd go for quality. Let your other techs catch up. Your admin tech will go up very quickly, which will open up another idea group anyway, so definitely don't get an admin group yet.


Stage 1 of consensus completed.

This is a worrying trend. We demand more sacrifices to Poseidon!

I shall try to accommodate you in the next update. Even if I don't think it's very Shinto to sacrifice to a Greek god. ;)

It is nice to see you westernizing, after all, it will be much easier now to spread the flag of the rising sun across the earth!

I certainly hope so!

At least this time, Japan won't have to wait until the 19th century to do it. Nice update.

And as a bonus, I didn't need the Dutch either!

Yeah agreed.

I made the mistake of taking an admin idea as my first, and it set me back trying to catch up on admin tech.

I wonder what a Japanese Colonial nation would be called. Other than that another good update Avindian! Must get annoying having to put up with all those rebellions that sprout up during the westernization process.

It's not the size of the rebellions -- a bit of carelessness on my part (I really don't have enough troops in Japan proper) and the fact that I forgot that the rebels have roughly my tech level.

I suspected the duck wasn't entirely to be trusted. But then it's not harming Ulm and is helping you so I guess it's all good.

And I have no clue about ideas, I'm afraid. I'm still focused on EU3 mechanics for some time, with only an occasional foray into EU4.

Given that this is now by far the farthest I've ever gotten in a game of EUIV, I am hardly a veteran.

That new world seems to look a bit filled already, or is it just me?

Also, I think expansion might actually be a good choice, You'll be able to colonize faster, and if colonization fails to give a large profit, you can always use that cb to expand in asia. But it might be that I haven't really used naval, so I might be wrong on it's use compared to the others...

Spain, Portugal, and GB have been pretty busy; then again, there could be more land hiding under TI.

Those Europeans have been busy. Looks like there's slim pickings for Japan in the New World. Maybe they haven't touched that island in the southwest part yet.

As everyone has said, military ideas are always a good choice. The religious ideas do have that nice relations boost if you complete them all though.

You mean Australia?! :D

Yeah, I really don't know how the religious part will be resolved. I do think I'm going to save the ADM ideas for a while, though.

i think the colonial nation forms after you have 5 colonies in the same region. I remember when they first did it that i had spain game going on and had at point 3 colonies in north part of south america even if I already had like 6 colonial nations in other parts of the america.

just to point out... not sure current state, but colonial nations have some big problems colonizing the rest of america, either they have some direct malus, or it was at some point bugged (maybe fixed now). And overall their play is unimpressive even for AI standard eventhough they get the same techs you have at the point where they form and I think they share the same idea groups you had when they formed.

I'm kind of just wanting to see how CNs work out, in all honesty. This is more "throw it all at the wall and see what sticks", rather than "this is my excessively detailed strategy for glory and success!"

To be more precise: 5 provinces with cores.

The colonization speed is WAD as far as I know. They have rather large penalties to it (their colonies just grow slower). And I think they take the same idea groups as your country would if ai controled (so the japanese colonial nations aren't going to colonize at all...)

As I said above, this is a trial for a future playthrough/AAR.

How would you convert to Catholicism?

Beats me!

Japanese <Name of the Colonial Region>. Only Historical Colonies like New England or Nouvelle-Flandres get their custom names.

Okay, thanks!

Putting your westernization to good use I see. Now it's just a matter of grabbing as many New World provinces as you can. I spy an empty continent in the southwest on your map, I say go for it ;)

As for a proper Idea Group, I agree with the commenters above me that an admin group is probably a bad idea right now. As for Quality; Europe is far away and your neighbours will soon be much weaker than you, so improving your army isn't a top priority. Being an island nation and having a long, proud tradition of glorious naval defeats, I'd definitely go for Naval.

Thanks for the thoughts! You're the one person who advocated for something other than Quality.

His Dip tech is pretty far behind at the moment. Taking Quality allows him to improve his navy by letting his tech go up (which will lead to better ships) and from the ideas that give a boost to naval combat. He can then take Naval when his Dip tech has caught up. There's also the fact that if he starts colonising the New World he's inevitably going to end up skirmishing with the European colonies, so better troops would definitely be handy.

I'm not hugely behind the curve in DIP (15 or 16, I want to say?), but I do agree with the idea that Quality is the way to go.

From the dev diary on colonial nations:

I don't know if Japan is among the not so likely colonizers though.

I would venture not.

Our new Western eyes
Peer through rising autumn mist
Seek Quality first​

I bow to the wisdom of the haiku.

So, my thought is Quality, Naval, Innovative/Religious for the next three groups. Of course, I can always change my mind depending on circumstances. I'm going to play this weekend and update the beginning of next week.