Japan needs your love

[LordWahu]

Perhaps they can do a Japan/US Pacific update. Fix the naval situation as well making it more dynamic. Naval Battles in HOI4 feel really shallow and most people don't even use navy or just spam naval bombers.

I have been playing Axis and Allies Anniversary edition and second edition with friends. Navy is a big part of that game and the Pacific War feels somewhat real in it. Of course A&A is missing it on the ground war without logistics and production that is seen in HOI4 and I would say HOI4 is overall a better simulator but it just is lacking from a naval point of view.

I am not sure how they fix it other than having you move fleets more like in EU4 or Vic2 but that would create a lot of micro-managing.

I think there are 2 easy changes that would make naval combat feel more fulfilling without a complete overhaul

1) Non-combat missions. Things like shore bombardment. Basically give fleets something to do other than just sink other fleets and sit next to naval invasions. That makes knowing where the enemy fleet is significantly more important, and means large battles can happen aside from joining patrol battles (Midway and Guadalcanal come to mind straight off the bat)

2) A battle log. Give us a text log of the calculations so we can better see how the battle is progressing. That gives the battles more flavor than just watching the bars go down two or three times a day. Which in turn makes them feel a little less shallow

In that regard, ship captains would similarly provide a layer of attachment to each ship that would help provide more depth

There is a 3) of knocking NAV and TAC out of the naval meta, but it looks like the air rework coming with BBA might have that handled

 

[karlq]

On another topic, just played Japan on the second easiest level and China is kicking my butt. I chose to be historical and go to war in 1937.

China just has way too many damn divisions at the start.

Also for some reason, Japan starts in this massive hole on infantry equipment so you cannot start mobilization very well until 1937. Seems like you are better off starting the war later at an unhistoric time.

This is kind of stupid. As I pointed out, China is way too OP in this game. Simple fix is to make Japan start out with a surplus (or break even) on Inf equipment so they can actually recruit divisions.

Anyone else have this much trouble fighting China? I think most people wait but if you want to be historic, it kind of ruins the fun.

You need extra arties, give Honhei divisions 6 arties would do the trick lol Get 20+ Honhei spearhead, and supply it with some 70 Chuton-chi to hold the line as you go deep in is enough (don't forget shore bombardment)

 

[LastButterfly]

In that regard, ship captains would similarly provide a layer of attachment to each ship that would help provide more depth

Sadly the whole division commander thing coming with BBA will apparently not have an equivalent for air and navy in the near future. Air having no commander as is, maybe there's a logic to that, but the whole concept they presented could totally be applied to ships... but won't be. Navy is not a priority by any means.

 

[Volbound]

You need extra arties, give Honhei divisions 6 arties would do the trick lol Get 20+ Honhei spearhead, and supply it with some 70 Chuton-chi to hold the line as you go deep in is enough (don't forget shore bombardment)View attachment 870080View attachment 870085View attachment 870086View attachment 870089

I added Art but perhaps not enough.

 

[LordWahu]

Sadly the whole division commander thing coming with BBA will apparently not have an equivalent for air and navy in the near future. Air having no commander as is, maybe there's a logic to that, but the whole concept they presented could totally be applied to ships... but won't be. Navy is not a priority by any means.

Fortunately in that same post when it came to captains, he basically said "couldn't get it done for this one, but on our radar for next time"

At least that's how I read it. At the very least he seemed receptive to it

 

[HugsAndSnuggles]

Non-combat missions. Things like shore bombardment. Basically give fleets something to do other than just sink other fleets and sit next to naval invasions.

Shore bombardment mission is already a thing, actually. When no naval invasion is planned in designated seazone, TF does exactly that: burns fuel to support every shore battle in the zone with bombardment. Although, doing it manually tends to yields better results, if only because you can also make use of carriers (and does not drain fuel).

 

[karlq]

I added Art but perhaps not enough.

12 infantry, 6 arty battalions, plus arty support company, use shore bombardment to help crack Chinese front as well; also get Supremacy of Will before attacking China; Immediately click escalate after declaring war; use 400 CAS planes

Anyway, the strongest (cheesiest as well) Japanese path is to join the axis and immediately start justifying against France. Naval land France and storm Paris, then go against Belgium & Netherlands while para dropping UK & faction kills other commonwealth nations by naval landing 1 1-infantry-battalion troops to their territories, to get eliminated in return of their war participation for annexing later, especially Canada & Australia.

After taking down the US, bring forth the tank & backstab the axis, ending up clearing up Axis + Comintern. Then just crush the Chinese lmao

 

[Lauxman]

The naval sea zone mechanic really destroyed any sort of fun in naval warfare in this game. The Battle of Midway could happen and you’d have zero clue until you saw 4 carriers sunk on a tiny icon afterwards. There’s no strategic thinking, no cat and mouse.

 

[LordWahu]

Shore bombardment mission is already a thing, actually. When no naval invasion is planned in designated seazone, TF does exactly that: burns fuel to support every shore battle in the zone with bombardment. Although, doing it manually tends to yields better results, if only because you can also make use of carriers (and does not drain fuel).

That's invasion support, not shore bombardment

The difference is Normandy Vs. Guadalcanal

Shore Bombardment is to damage infrastructure to deny the enemy use of it. Say destroying an airbase so the enemy can't run bombers off it

Whereas Invasion support is strictly to suppress shore defenses to allow an invasion to proceed

The former should be an option as well as the latter

 

[Noldo_Prague]

In my opinion, before we start talking about reworking of trees, PDX should decide if it will ever start thinking of balancing the game, so that it would for the first time resemble WWII at least in the broadest contours, on average, on historical. Like that China did not lose, so didn't SU, D-Day didnt fail, India didn't fall, Japan navy and air force was beaten by the US. I dont say it has to be in every game, but with some percentage in most games, if left observed, AI only. Most of these basic elements do not work, and never did. In my opinion, without fixing that, fixing Trees or balancing units is only a minor issue, if the whole history and balance, and therefore any immersion, is out of the window.

If PDX will say something like "If player will not help SU significantly, it is scripted to lose" or something like that, OK, we are clear, there is no hope, good bye.

 

[Mister Analyst]

If PDX will say something like "If player will not help SU significantly, it is scripted to lose" or something like that, OK, we are clear, there is no hope, good bye.

PDX has stated something similar on a number of occasions.

From developer diary 1332546:

or HOI (no matter the version really) we have always striven for a balance where Germany defeats the Soviet Union if the allies do not take pressure off by invading. This ensures that all of the big sides need to be active and if played by a player you need to step up. Now before we jump to the 10 pages of comments discussing if this is a realistic target... It is, for gameplay I think. History wise I am personally convinced that the Soviets would have beaten Germany on their own. It just would have taken a lot longer and been much costlier, and there isn't much point in playing the UK or USA if Soviets will just take care of Germany on their own...

 

[mursolini]

China is fun but man are they overpowered. It is easy to just hold Japan off by swamping troops at North border and coastline, get the Warlords united under Focus Tree, and then get rid of the debuffs.

It`s better to kill warlords. You should be able to unify China by the time AI japan invades

Once China is up and running, they are one of the most powerful nations in the game by mid-1940s.

It isn`t due to lack of Aluminum and steel and oil, and rubber.

In fact, I often have a harder time as Japan than China in the Sino-Japanese War segment.

On another topic, just played Japan on the second easiest level and China is kicking my butt. I chose to be historical and go to war in 1937.

China just has way too many damn divisions at the start.

Also for some reason, Japan starts in this massive hole on infantry equipment so you cannot start mobilization very well until 1937. Seems like you are better off starting the war later at an unhistoric time.

This is kind of stupid. As I pointed out, China is way too OP in this game. Simple fix is to make Japan start out with a surplus (or break even) on Inf equipment so they can actually recruit divisions.

Anyone else have this much trouble fighting China? I think most people wait but if you want to be historic, it kind of ruins the fun.

As Japan, killing China is very, very easy. Main advantage is air support, tanks, and navy.

The sooner you invade, the better. Use your marines to spread China around. Use your "tank divisions" for breakthroughs.

But just make sure you do provide yourself with air support, it fixes 90% of Japanese problems.

That's invasion support, not shore bombardment

The difference is Normandy Vs. Guadalcanal

Shore Bombardment is to damage infrastructure to deny the enemy use of it. Say destroying an airbase so the enemy can't run bombers off it

Whereas Invasion support is strictly to suppress shore defenses to allow an invasion to proceed

The former should be an option as well as the latter

Shore bombardment would only work in case of small pacific islands, where a battleship has enough range to cover it all.

If any inland depth is available, nobody would place things inside naval guns firing range.

 

[LordWahu]

Shore bombardment would only work in case of small pacific islands, where a battleship has enough range to cover it all.

If any inland depth is available, nobody would place things inside naval guns firing range.

Agreed. Aside from small islands, this would only be good for railroads/coastal forts on coastal provinces. Or ports. Province based stuff rather than state based stuff (Airfields are a lovely exception because they're technically province based despite being state constructed, making them only targets in certain circumstances...like pacific islands)

In Europe it wouldn't make much of a difference (Mostly), but in the Pacific, or in mods with more jagged coastlines, this would be a decent enough boon to make the naval game worth investing in even if your opponent's fleet no longer exists

 

[Caeric]

Honestly I find a bit funny that railway guns have so much better range than shore bombardment on that subject.

I forget if the railway gun bonus is higher or not. Would be ironic in that case since a battleship typically has 8-12 guns of similar size..

 

[mursolini]

Honestly I find a bit funny that railway guns have so much better range than shore bombardment on that subject.

I forget if the railway gun bonus is higher or not. Would be ironic in that case since a battleship typically has 8-12 guns of similar size..

It is presumably anti-micro measure, that abstracts "local" movement and local rail lines availability.

 

[Sourlol]

I’d argue all dlc countries, but particularly the majors released prior to LaR, could use another content pass.

USSR, France and soon to be Italy will have more interesting mechanics, a deeper and more interesting focus tree, and benefit from everything that has been developed since 2016 than the likes of UK, Germany and Japan.

Japan, for instance, seems like a perfect candidate for the Balance of Power system.

After BBA, only Finland is really missing when it comes to the main belligerents.

I hope they then go and “custodian” older nations and keep adding in minors and alt history (gotta sell units, as absurd as a Fascist Belgium WC would be).

retouching Japan while adding Philippines and Thailand. Retouching the UK and commonwealth and adding Belgium. Retouching Germany and Romania/Hungary while adding Denmark (if not added with Scandinavia/Nordic) and Austria. Updating US while adding Brazil and making some sort of regional focus tree for the rest of Central and South America—or whatever

 

[SRhistory]

Looking at it, the most fun nations to play are Japan and around Japan. The focus tree are not that good and could use a little adjustments (really they are not that bad as people like to believe us in this thread) but the fun is in the supply system, navy part (mainly Japan), and army setup (yep 8/2 - 20w could do but better is 21w with the right support companies ) and getting it supplied. To my believe the best update for Japan and all counties round it is not the focus tree but the diplomats. If you want to win than this is your key for succes. (=request lend lease to get the equipment needed). Next to this… looking to the pacific (all between usa-Japan) then I would say the usa/Japan focus tree could have an update to make it more fun to play.
Sort:
- Japan and nations round it are fun to play
- diplomatic system for Japan / nations around Japan needed
- focus tree update (small one) neede to make pacific more fun for USA and Japan

(people who want to know it: 1500+ hours in the game and more than 500+ hours in playing Japan and nations round Japan)

 

[Volbound]

It`s better to kill warlords. You should be able to unify China by the time AI japan invades

It isn`t due to lack of Aluminum and steel and oil, and rubber.



As Japan, killing China is very, very easy. Main advantage is air support, tanks, and navy.

The sooner you invade, the better. Use your marines to spread China around. Use your "tank divisions" for breakthroughs.

But just make sure you do provide yourself with air support, it fixes 90% of Japanese problems.

Shore bombardment would only work in case of small pacific islands, where a battleship has enough range to cover it all.

If any inland depth is available, nobody would place things inside naval guns firing range.

I tried everything you said about China and it did not work. Marines got held up and couldn't land due to Chinese division stacking.

 

[mursolini]

I tried everything you said about China and it did not work. Marines got held up and couldn't land due to Chinese division stacking.

Show us screenshots.

 

[The Colonel]

A save would be best, but also probably not in this thread...