Japan needs your love

[merlincy]

Honestly. It. Does.

Dear developers and game community, IMHO, Japan's national focus tree needs in-depth reworking. It is self-evident now when you compare it to the NF trees of such countries as Turkey, Spain, and Yugoslavia. (I just took three random countries from the list of "minor" nations).

I remember once in the middle of playing for France (it was year 42) I just discovered that there was a small part of the NF tree that I can exploit to my profit and that I kind of overlooked. You don't have such pleasant surprises with the Japanese NF tree. It is pretty straightforward, instead. "Purge the Kodoha faction," and that's it. Job's done. By contrast, NF trees for minor nations now have much more details than the Japanese tree. Moreover, they not only specify the list of strategic decisions but also provide you with nifty details on how you will achieve your goals. These details are fascinating as they improve your cohesion with the game and give insight into the political and cultural life of the country of that time.

To summarize, for Japan:

1. If you go with democrats, the later gameplay feels a little dull. It would be best to provide players with the means to develop their own country and economy, which is what people generally expect from a democratic government.
2. If you go with Axis, there could be more details on Japan's preparation for WWII. Outline their numerous invasion plans. Provide more information on their naval strategies, which played a crucial part in the struggle for the Pacific.
3. If you prefer Shogunate, it should feel like you are restoring the old Empire and not just being forced to fight USSR for no good reason.
4. Either way, Japan needs more details on its conflict with China and colonial policies.

With respect and best wishes.

 

[thedarkendstar]

Im gonna be honest I feel this way about alot of the majors I never liked the US reworked tree the German and Japanese ones feels outdated now the british one is middle of the pack with the French and then you have the New Soviet one and the up coming Italian one.

Instead of drastic reworks to all majors trees I think maybe every dlc patch should maybe do like mini updates to there trees that way they dont have to come back and rework the whole thing they can just drop bits in every once and awhile so they don't feel dated.

 

[merlincy]

Playing HOI4 for a few years, but never tried the US. Not sure about the reason, but when I look at their tree it somehow feels strange, with the "War Plan Orange", "War Plan Red" etc. part especially. It is historical, we can say, but still.

 

[Iskulya]

Japan feels extremely lackluster compared even to Germany, which arrived in the same DLC!

All the paths save for the historical, fascist one are both boring and lackluster, and even the historical one lacks depth and flavor. The Democratic and Communist paths are extremely weak given that geographic Japan itself has virtually no resources and few factory slots. The non-aligned path is filled with filler focuses that are nigh-useless, and doesn't really let you do anything interesting. If you want to go to war with the Soviet Union, the best way of going about that is to stay fascist, conquer China, dissolve the co-prosperity sphere, and join the Axis. You'll be working on a similar timetable to non-aligned Japan but have far more factories and resources to work with.

Newer focus trees seem to embrace a better design philosophy. Notice how democratic and communist Italy, from what's been shown, have the ability to form a union with colonies they start with or potentially Ethiopia if they conquered it. There needs to be some longer term goal to work towards that expands your power as democratic/fascist beyond just unguided annexation of everything, otherwise the game tends to be dull.

 

[warriop3]

According to this logic, the USA also needs recycling
But in general, why not

 

[The Colonel]

USA and Germany feel a lot more fun than Japan IMO. Japan is lacking in PP and industry compared to the two. Besides uhhh whatever that focus is called that gives you the +10% attack spirit, there's really nothing standout in the tree (i mean you can count the half-broken SHBB focus, and rushing Zero isn't even as good as normal focuses to rush Fighter II). You get early war eco and recruitable pop which is nice, but the rest of the historical tree is super filler and full of useless shit like claims. Ironically Japan is probably one of the best fits in the game for the BBA balance of power mechanic (here for army vs. navy, or like emperor vs. military factions if you go one of the other paths maybe), but I doubt they'll ever get that mechanic due to PDX's DLC policies.

 

[Treviranus]

I enjoy playing as Japan and think that a few minor changes would suffice.
It's not great for example, that political alignment and foreign policy is so closely linked, but it works for since I prefer going North and playing non-aligned anyway. I also think that the national spirits could get cleaned up a little bit. (You already start with "State Shintoism" and "Militarism" and can get "Spiritual Mobilization" and either "Supremacy of Technology" or "Superior Will". Would be nicer if these were condensed to fewer spirits that you can improve upon like the Metaxism spirit for Greece.) You also don't really have any interaction with Korea and you can't core anything.

But all things considered, I get that Japan doesn't seem to be much of a priority for the Devs.

 

[Wellington]

I enjoy playing as Japan and think that a few minor changes would suffice.
It's not great for example, that political alignment and foreign policy is so closely linked, but it works for since I prefer going North and playing non-aligned anyway. I also think that the national spirits could get cleaned up a little bit. (You already start with "State Shintoism" and "Militarism" and can get "Spiritual Mobilization" and either "Supremacy of Technology" or "Superior Will". Would be nicer if these were condensed to fewer spirits that you can improve upon like the Metaxism spirit for Greece.) You also don't really have any interaction with Korea and you can't core anything.

But all things considered, I get that Japan doesn't seem to be much of a priority for the Devs.

I enjoy playing as Japan too, and always go south. I also love playing Italy and the UK. For these I have never felt any need for change. But then again, I am pretty traditional.

 

[Volbound]

Perhaps they can do a Japan/US Pacific update. Fix the naval situation as well making it more dynamic. Naval Battles in HOI4 feel really shallow and most people don't even use navy or just spam naval bombers.

I have been playing Axis and Allies Anniversary edition and second edition with friends. Navy is a big part of that game and the Pacific War feels somewhat real in it. Of course A&A is missing it on the ground war without logistics and production that is seen in HOI4 and I would say HOI4 is overall a better simulator but it just is lacking from a naval point of view.

I am not sure how they fix it other than having you move fleets more like in EU4 or Vic2 but that would create a lot of micro-managing.

 

[LastButterfly]

Japan/US Pacific update.

This. Perhaps this is even what MtG should have been, but it was not because Japan had been hastily reworked prior.

The problem is that almost nobody plays the Pacific theater because it's quite boring as is. And because it is not popular, it's shoved behind everything else in terms of update priority. So it remains boring, and thus it remains unplayed, and thus it remains out of focus.

Once in a blue moon you see someone asking for Siam to get some love. Even more rarely, Indonesia. Everybody seems to have forgotten about the Philippines. And of course - although that's just my honest opinion - when Italy gets revamped, both the USA and Japan will tie as the least interesting major's trees. Not as bad as Italy (and everybody else) once was, but just bland and unfun. Combine that with TFV's Australia and New Zealand having very little to do (and most being either internal or related to their relation with Britain), and, well, nothing interesting ever really happens in the Pacific and SEA.

It's really sad.

 

[Wellington]

This. Perhaps this is even what MtG should have been, but it was not because Japan had been hastily reworked prior.

The problem is that almost nobody plays the Pacific theater because it's quite boring as is. And because it is not popular, it's shoved behind everything else in terms of update priority. So it remains boring, and thus it remains unplayed, and thus it remains out of focus.

Just wondering, how do you know? Is there official statistics somewhere? I find it far from boring. Althoug it is an administrative "nightmare" considering the scope of the war. From North China to Guadalcanal. Certain messages auto-pausing the game would have been very useful.

 

[LastButterfly]

Just wondering, how do you know? Is there official statistics somewhere? I find it far from boring.

Well, just because it is unpopular does not mean absolutely nobody like it. You're just one of the unlucky few.

At the very least, the USA and Japan scored as the two least played amongst the seven majors in the last stats they gave in a DD last year. Japan in particular has been in last place for a while. I'll track down more recent data if possible.

 

[Xerberous]

The way how NF-Trees were designed changed over the course of time and yes, the NF-Trees of Germany, Japan and for some reasons also the US are definitely not up-to date (Btw: I’ve no good explanation why the UK-Tree still locks nice). After all Major NF-Trees are updated, there should be enough resources to visit these three again. The only thing which makes me feel a bit wired about this is the fact that the German Tree may be old, but it works well – and I definitely prefer a working old-fashioned tree over an up-to-date one which is just FUBAR.

 

[Volbound]

This. Perhaps this is even what MtG should have been, but it was not because Japan had been hastily reworked prior.

The problem is that almost nobody plays the Pacific theater because it's quite boring as is. And because it is not popular, it's shoved behind everything else in terms of update priority. So it remains boring, and thus it remains unplayed, and thus it remains out of focus.

Once in a blue moon you see someone asking for Siam to get some love. Even more rarely, Indonesia. Everybody seems to have forgotten about the Philippines. And of course - although that's just my honest opinion - when Italy gets revamped, both the USA and Japan will tie as the least interesting major's trees. Not as bad as Italy (and everybody else) once was, but just bland and unfun. Combine that with TFV's Australia and New Zealand having very little to do (and most being either internal or related to their relation with Britain), and, well, nothing interesting ever really happens in the Pacific and SEA.

It's really sad.

China is fun but man are they overpowered. It is easy to just hold Japan off by swamping troops at North border and coastline, get the Warlords united under Focus Tree, and then get rid of the debuffs.

Once China is up and running, they are one of the most powerful nations in the game by mid-1940s.

In fact, I often have a harder time as Japan than China in the Sino-Japanese War segment.

Funny, though, that AI China typically always loses to AI Japan.

Then again, maybe this is just me being new to the game. I won't lie, I don't get Pacific much love. Europe is a more interesting front in HOI4. However, other games make the Pacific a lot of fun such as Axis and Allies.

Issue with Pacific is it is Navy heavy and Navy in HOI4 is just not strong.

 

[karlq]

China is fun but man are they overpowered. It is easy to just hold Japan off by swamping troops at North border and coastline, get the Warlords united under Focus Tree, and then get rid of the debuffs.

Once China is up and running, they are one of the most powerful nations in the game by mid-1940s.

In fact, I often have a harder time as Japan than China in the Sino-Japanese War segment.

Funny, though, that AI China typically always loses to AI Japan.

Then again, maybe this is just me being new to the game. I won't lie, I don't get Pacific much love. Europe is a more interesting front in HOI4. However, other games make the Pacific a lot of fun such as Axis and Allies.

Issue with Pacific is it is Navy heavy and Navy in HOI4 is just not strong.

AI China sucks, no matter how many tanks, arties were sent to them, they would keep fighting with 10-infantry-battalion divisions + some support companies...

 

[Volbound]

AI China sucks, no matter how many tanks, arties were sent to them, they would keep fighting with 10-infantry-battalion divisions + some support companies...

I think this is true of most the AI, they only stick to building their initial setup divisions and make little changes.

AI is pretty bad in this game. You only get stopped by either swarms or logistics and rarely get stopped by AI tactics.

UK is probably the worse because operation sealion is way too easy in this game.

Another naval point, I don't understand how when you put navy like submarines on commerce raiding, they get into battles with large fleets and you lose all your submarines. Makes 0 sense because if UK brought their entire fleet to defend a convoy, the subs would disengage.

Also funny how I get totally killed by UK navy when playing Germany or Italy when I do convoy raiding but my convoys have no issues nor do I have any issues getting naval superiority to actually invade the UK.

Also playing as UK, my naval superiority is NEVER challenged by either Germany or Italy nor do I have issues with Convoys. The only exception might be the middle Mediterranean and that is due to Italian Naval Bombers and not their fleet.

 

[LastButterfly]

China

China is kind of an edge case. All in all, it works right now (although it's far from having no problem. The border conflict mecanism is half broken and the AI can't even use it, ever). However, China usually makes up the Asian theater, but it never has anything to do with SEA and the Pacific. So I'm not sure China should count as a member of the Pacific Theater game-wise.

Then again, maybe this is just me being new to the game. I won't lie, I don't get Pacific much love. Europe is a more interesting front in HOI4. However, other games make the Pacific a lot of fun such as Axis and Allies.

Issue with Pacific is it is Navy heavy and Navy in HOI4 is just not strong.

As I mentionned : it's not fun -> it doesn't attract players -> it's not played much -> it's not prioritized for updates -> it remains unfun -> it still doesn't attract players -> it's still not played much -> it's still low priority -> rince, lather, repeat.
Paradox creates contents for what already has interest, instead of trying to create interest. It's not a bad or a good thing, mind you ; it's just an all too normal fact. Understandable and logical, if somewhat disappointing.

MtG should have been the Pacific update. But when the rework the navy, they probably payed more attention to actions in the Atlantic/North Sea and maybe the Med ; and because Japan had been touched up prior, the Pacific was out of focus. As such, navy just doesn't work for where it was the most prevalent.

The most terrible is that because MtG is behind we will probably get some naval rebalance, as is planned, but if the issues run deeper with how navy works as a whole, it'll probably never get reworked in depth again. I honestly have no hope that the Pacific & SEA theaters will ever become interesting. Someday, Siam and the Philippines will have unique trees, but that's probably where it'll stop.

 

[Volbound]

China is kind of an edge case. All in all, it works right now (although it's far from having no problem. The border conflict mecanism is half broken and the AI can't even use it, ever). However, China usually makes up the Asian theater, but it never has anything to do with SEA and the Pacific. So I'm not sure China should count as a member of the Pacific Theater game-wise.



As I mentionned : it's not fun -> it doesn't attract players -> it's not played much -> it's not prioritized for updates -> it remains unfun -> it still doesn't attract players -> it's still not played much -> it's still low priority -> rince, lather, repeat.
Paradox creates contents for what already has interest, instead of trying to create interest. It's not a bad or a good thing, mind you ; it's just an all too normal fact. Understandable and logical, if somewhat disappointing.

MtG should have been the Pacific update. But when the rework the navy, they probably payed more attention to actions in the Atlantic/North Sea and maybe the Med ; and because Japan had been touched up prior, the Pacific was out of focus. As such, navy just doesn't work for where it was the most prevalent.

The most terrible is that because MtG is behind we will probably get some naval rebalance, as is planned, but if the issues run deeper with how navy works as a whole, it'll probably never get reworked in depth again. I honestly have no hope that the Pacific & SEA theaters will ever become interesting. Someday, Siam and the Philippines will have unique trees, but that's probably where it'll stop.

I agree with everything you are saying.

Navy is just difficult in general. I am just not sure navy works right outside of a turn-based situation. When it is turned-based, you can literally move ships/fleets around and adjust to other enemy movements to recreate replicas of Midway or Coral Sea, etc.

However, in HOI4 format, you just really cannot do it. You just put your ships on Recon and Strike force and just wait until they destroy the enemy fleet or they themselves are inexplicable killed. There is no fun to it and it really doesn't have any strategy. It also hurts that the AI is terrible at naval strategy and the AI doesn't build Capital ships for the most part.

As a human player in the Pacific, you can basically pretend the AI doesn't even have a navy and just pick islands to invade.

 

[Amberle]

I just don't think it's possible to make the pacific war good in hoi. It's been an issue in every game. I'm not saying the devs are bad but it's just a very daunting task I think. I would love to be wrong. The idea of playing Japan is extremely appealing, but in hoi4 it's not that fun. I prefer hoi 2 in that regard.

 

[Volbound]

On another topic, just played Japan on the second easiest level and China is kicking my butt. I chose to be historical and go to war in 1937.

China just has way too many damn divisions at the start.

Also for some reason, Japan starts in this massive hole on infantry equipment so you cannot start mobilization very well until 1937. Seems like you are better off starting the war later at an unhistoric time.

This is kind of stupid. As I pointed out, China is way too OP in this game. Simple fix is to make Japan start out with a surplus (or break even) on Inf equipment so they can actually recruit divisions.

Anyone else have this much trouble fighting China? I think most people wait but if you want to be historic, it kind of ruins the fun.