Japan needs to be seriously debuffed OR the Chinese AI needs to be much better.

[Ketchup & friends]

Japan is fine as it is. If they get debuffed, they would most likely end up unable to repeat the historical 1941-42 conquests and become a punching bag for the Allies.

But we agree that China needs to be buffed and allied AI should care more about the Asia-Pacific Region.

And Sending volunteers should be nerfed in general.

China isn't worth actually invading (it really wasn't OTL - the Japanese got mission creeped by Kwangtang army until it was too late to back out)

This is ignored in the game. Invading China should be an suboptimal option for Japan, but there should be events etc. reflecting the demands of the Kwantung army. If a fascist Japan decides to ignore them, there should be a high risk of Rebellion and Civil War.

 

[kettyo]

EDIT: These are from an all-AI game i'm currenty observing. No checksum editing mods, only cosmetic ones. July, 1944.:

Hey, Tasmania still holds valiantly

 

[Voigt]

I improved the Chinese AI somewhat in my mod (new focus order, better PP spending, new infantry template to aim for) and with that China in 100% of the games I tested wins the war and throws Japan of the continent. I also tried to improve the Japan AI, but not I can't do enough so the Japan AI wins.
A human Japan still always can win.

So there is no need for a China buff or Japan debuff. Rathet a slight Japan buff and some AI tweaks.

 

[seattle]

In the middle of my 4th historical Germany game in a row with vanilla.
Japan got stomped in the first three despite my LL.

In the 4th game I finally sent an exped corps and led Japan to victory in 1939.

It's anecdotal for sure, but it seems that PDS doesn't get the balance right. Neither side should win this quickly.

 

[Ketchup & friends]

I improved the Chinese AI somewhat in my mod (new focus order, better PP spending, new infantry template to aim for) and with that China in 100% of the games I tested wins the war and throws Japan of the continent. I also tried to improve the Japan AI, but not I can't do enough so the Japan AI wins.
A human Japan still always can win.

So there is no need for a China buff or Japan debuff. Rathet a slight Japan buff and some AI tweaks.

How does your mod prevent buffed Japan from overrunning the Allies even faster?

 

[Riekopo]

One of the issues is the Soviets can send volunteers to several of the warlords at the same time, which is how they get ridiculous numbers of divisions helping out on the front line.

A German or Italian player can do the same thing with Japan, Manchukuo, and Mengkukuo. Typically I send air voulenteers to both Japan (250 cas and 200 fighters) and Mengkukuo (450 tacs) at the start of the war as Germany for the air experience, but don't send any land forces.

On Historical Mode, The USSR should not be allowed to send Divisions to China. That is completely unhistorical and complete fantasy. The USSR sent volunteer pilots and maybe some aircraft and that's it. It's absolutely ridiculous to see 20 Soviet Divisions in China fighting Japan during the Second Sino-Japanese War. That would never happen.

And also, the way the United States AI sends a massive amount of Divisions to Britain before they were even involved in the war is ridiculous and goofy. The US only started sending troops to Britain in 1942 and at peak there were about 100,000 there I think. Should only be allowed to send troops to Britain once they join the war.

 

[Caeric]

As far as I'm concerned I'm pretty sure this 100% an AI problem and less about either side being too strong or weak. This is all about managing force distribution. If China quickly contains any naval invasions by Japan, Japan will probably get beaten effortlessly simply by keeping the front small. If China is too slow in responding and the front widens too fast before they can deploy more troops they will probably fall or lose significant amounts of land before the front stabilizes again. Then there's also the Soviet volunteers which can make the war practically unwinnable for the Japan AI. Assuming the correct AI priorities and the Allies and USSR properly lend-leasing China all the equipmend they need, then deploy enough troops to prevent naval invasion from just taking huge amounts of land.

 

[fallgelb22061940]

I never had a game in new patch where Japan defeated China. China AI always survives if Japan is AI controlled.

 

[mpop]

I don't want china to beat japan. I just want USA to do destroy their navy, invade their islands, drop few nukes on their mainland like how it historical went. Like this, USA does nothing at all.

 

[PurpulaPhoenixum53]

I don't want china to beat japan. I just want USA to do destroy their navy, invade their islands, drop few nukes on their mainland like how it historical went. Like this, USA does nothing at all.

Similarly, historically Japan should still technically "win" in China, only to be undercut by the USA and USSR entering the war at their respective timeline's, when on historical.

 

[Voigt]

@Ketchup & friends The mod is mostly for MP, so human Japan has somewhat of a challange defeating AI China. Japan and other majors have also some ai tweaks, mostly to test stuff in SP.

But AI Japan would some more tweaks since when they lose to China all the time, they aren't any threat to the AI Allies. ^^

 

[Black_Shade]

@Ketchup & friends The mod is mostly for MP, so human Japan has somewhat of a challange defeating AI China. Japan and other majors have also some ai tweaks, mostly to test stuff in SP.

But AI Japan would some more tweaks since when they lose to China all the time, they aren't any threat to the AI Allies. ^^

I mean, they already aren't a threat to the Allies in vanilla. The AI cannot win in the pacific.

 

[sekelsenmat]

But we agree that China needs to be buffed

Seriously? But historical realism? China was not the superpower that it is today.

China during ww2 had: zero tank production, zero aircraft production! Produced only Mauser-licensed rifles, and even those they had trouble producing.

A realistic China would be seriously nerfed tecnologically, I'd have to say it should have 1 research slot, expanded to max 2 in the focus tree (same for all other minors, excluding some in Europe like Sweden/Poland/Czech). The minors were buying stuff from Majors, they didn't have the capacity to produce it.

That's another reason why I think early rifles should have their soft attack buffed in comparison to late ones, so bad-tech inf equipment has more of a chance. 3/6/9/12 is too stepy, I'd propose 5/6.5/8/10. Early rifles were ok enough to kill people and fight the war and defended China.

What the game is missing is the significant lend-lease that China received from both the Soviets and the USA.

And it also misses the gigantic lend-lease that the Soviets received from USA/UK by the way.

allied AI should care more about the Asia-Pacific Region.

Agreed.

And Sending volunteers should be nerfed in general.

In which way? Italy sent plenty so it was clearly possible. If anything it should be possible to send while at war, and we should be able to call them back. USA send air volunteers to China while at war.

This is ignored in the game. Invading China should be an suboptimal option for Japan, but there should be events etc. reflecting the demands of the Kwantung army. If a fascist Japan decides to ignore them, there should be a high risk of Rebellion and Civil War.

China was the largest producer of tungsten (not reflected in game), so taking it denies it to the USA and is probably one reason why they helped China. Although Japan really needed oil, not tungsten. Still, they could use tungsten to trade for oil in theory. They should get pretty much no industry from conquering China.

 

[Crixus]

Japan is fine as it is. If they get debuffed, they would most likely end up unable to repeat the historical 1941-42 conquests and become a punching bag for the Allies.

But we agree that China needs to be buffed and allied AI should care more about the Asia-Pacific Region.

And Sending volunteers should be nerfed in general.


This is ignored in the game. Invading China should be an suboptimal option for Japan, but there should be events etc. reflecting the demands of the Kwantung army. If a fascist Japan decides to ignore them, there should be a high risk of Rebellion and Civil War.

I agree that Japan is fine, though I think China is fine as well, the problem is that USA is not helping out, the solution is so simple, make USA have prio of navy-presence in the pacific and not europe.
Europe is UKs prio for the navy.
A suggestion would be that china would remove the chinese united front and join the allies(which historically happened 1941), that would make USA focus on the pacific more perhaps.

 

[Oddb@ll]

Perhaps something like the scw mechanic with huge combat debuffs in states could be applied to China as well? Say they were to be applied to all states but the coast, which was seized by Japan historically. That way Japan would have a real struggle to push further inland.

It's a very artificial way to model it. I'm just spitballing here

 

[Morbus Bubbonicus]

part of major balance issue is that you can send volunteers to EACH CHI warlord. NAT.China, COM. Cnina, cliques etc. As USSR, for example, you can send ~20 top divisions to China. ~7 to NAT.CHI, 2-4 to COM.CHI, 4 to each of cliques. not counting airforce. So Japan had to face your special forces, armor and other stuffthey simply cannot breach through mountains.
And as AI don't know how to defend coastlines you can station specialized forces just to guard major landing points, forcing JAP to grind through northern mountainous wastes and Beijing fortifications.
That is from USSR ONLY, but others can send their own volunteers to chinas as well.

 

[Vityviktor]

Perhaps something like the scw mechanic with huge combat debuffs in states could be applied to China as well? Say they were to be applied to all states but the coast, which was seized by Japan historically. That way Japan would have a real struggle to push further inland.

It's a very artificial way to model it. I'm just spitballing here

Something like this would also help to portray what the Sino-Japonse war should be: Japan absolutely bogged down in a massive land war, with a lot of partisan activity in the occupied areas (which I don't think the game portrays accurately). Neither side should be able to win easily, while the Chinese could benefit from the attrition war due to their massive manpower and foreign aid (I think there should be more events about foreign powers aiding the Nationalists or the Communists, or both).

 

[Black_Shade]

Perhaps something like the scw mechanic with huge combat debuffs in states could be applied to China as well? Say they were to be applied to all states but the coast, which was seized by Japan historically. That way Japan would have a real struggle to push further inland.

It's a very artificial way to model it. I'm just spitballing here

This already exists, Japan has a flat negative to attack modifier across any province which is a core of China. They have a decision chain to reduce it, at the cost of increasing US war support to allow them to switch laws sooner. It's not as strong as the one in Spain, but it's still pretty substantial (~50% IIRC). It's also why you see AI Japan tend to struggle for the first year of the war, as it takes them a while to get the attack modifier down.

It really doesn't matter though, because Japan gets absolutely stomped every game in the pacific and I'd rather them finish China in a reasonable amount of time and pose an actual threat to the UK and USA rather than be the doormat they are currently.

 

[Col.Klink]

I've never seen a game where Japan doesn't lose horribly in the Pacific. They win in China but I find they generally are dead by 1943, for similar reasons that Italy always loses and why it's so easy to Sealion the Brits- the AI's inability to effectively garrison anything.

The AI also really isn't cut out for a multifront war. I'd much rather have Japan steamroll China and be an actual threat in the Pacific, than get bogged down in a stalemate in China which ties up all of their divisions and the US invade the home islands in 1942- which is what would happen currently if Japan couldn't defeat China.

I just can't figure out why the AI not defending it's coasts is just a longstanding issue. Seriously the developers just need to add a few lines so that the AI will drop 2-3 divisions on every port in controlled territory. Done. Coast is moderately defended.

 

[kettyo]

Do the Marco Polo debuffs affect also volunteers or not? If not then it is a major source of imbalance as volunteers will be massively superior to local Japanese/Chinese units.