Japan needs to be seriously debuffed OR the Chinese AI needs to be much better.

[PurpulaPhoenixum53]

Title.

I know this topic has come up many times and the devs have state that Japan is buffed a bit so they don't collapse so quickly. However, Japan repeatedly conquering all of Eastern Asia, Siberia, Hawaii, Australia, and British Raj is a bit too much even for alt-history. Japan needs to have some serious guardrails added to it to prevent it from steamrolling to victory every game. Some ideas in this department would be to buff China a bit, so they can actually survive to 1942-ish or weaken Japan's starting position so they don't immediately snowball.

I know this gonna get downvoted, but I'm tired to seeing Japan conquer all of East Asia and Hawaii+Australia(and some times New Zealand). Japan needs to be debuffed heavily, or the enemies improved in some department.

 

[FindFloppies]

Cannot duplicate your results...

 

[sekelsenmat]

I just had a game playing Italy where Japan conquered China in 44, and all the Pacific including Hawaii.

I think it is ok, Japan pushed where it should. The only real problem is the allied AI sending hundreds of divisions against me in Africa, France etc and totally ignoring Japan.

When the Allied AI focuses on Japan I've seen it fall and be occupied by the US in 41.

No idea what the root cause is....

But it is not Japan being too strong. It is pretty weak and USA AI clearly can build thousands of planes and hundreds of leg infantry, it just hates me more then it hates Japan or whatever.

 

[Dlin369]

Japan-China is often problematic because the balance is not exactly stable - some games Japan can steamroll China by 1938/1939 while others AI China is able to drive the Japanese out altogether. Factor in the fact that a player with moderate experience can easily win as either side and you've got a massive issue the AI struggles to handle and is difficult to balance. Lately I've seen China hold out longer and more of a stalemate, but it's still an artificial balance in the sense that the stalemate is basically a bunch of national spirits propping up both sides.

With any luck a logistics rework that may or may not include railroads will be implemented in the coming updates to more organically simulate the struggles Japan had pushing inland. Japan should have no problems pushing inwards on the coast, but further than that the Japanese should stall hard.

This unfortunately also has some big implications however - if China isn't worth actually invading (it really wasn't OTL - the Japanese got mission creeped by Kwangtang army until it was too late to back out), what would stop a player from simply ignoring China altogether and focus on the resource rich South-East Asian colonies? This would require further work to simulate the existing geopolitical issues in 1936 in Asia.

 

[Black_Shade]

I've never seen a game where Japan doesn't lose horribly in the Pacific. They win in China but I find they generally are dead by 1943, for similar reasons that Italy always loses and why it's so easy to Sealion the Brits- the AI's inability to effectively garrison anything.

The AI also really isn't cut out for a multifront war. I'd much rather have Japan steamroll China and be an actual threat in the Pacific, than get bogged down in a stalemate in China which ties up all of their divisions and the US invade the home islands in 1942- which is what would happen currently if Japan couldn't defeat China.

 

[noobermenschen]

Title.

I know this topic has come up many times and the devs have state that Japan is buffed a bit so they don't collapse so quickly. However, Japan repeatedly conquering all of Eastern Asia, Siberia, Hawaii, Australia, and British Raj is a bit too much even for alt-history. Japan needs to have some serious guardrails added to it to prevent it from steamrolling to victory every game. Some ideas in this department would be to buff China a bit, so they can actually survive to 1942-ish or weaken Japan's starting position so they don't immediately snowball.

I know this gonna get downvoted, but I'm tired to seeing Japan conquer all of East Asia and Hawaii+Australia(and some times New Zealand). Japan needs to be debuffed heavily, or the enemies improved in some department.

Not always. Japan usually defeats China but I have seen Chiang hang on until the Pacific War starts. My current French campaign the United Front was holding the Eastern Devils at Wuhan and attacking well into Manchuchko in 1941.

The guardrail I have seen for Japan is the US Navy. If the Japanese can win that first big battle at sea they will crush the US fleet, and then they will run riot. If the US Navy (or Allied player led fleet) can sink a big part of the IJN (which is usually what happens) then Japan gets in trouble quickly and doesn't get out.

 

[Riekopo]

I keep seeing China kicking Japan's ass because they get freaking 20 Soviet Volunteer Divisions including Tank Divisions lol.

 

[noobermenschen]

I keep seeing China kicking Japan's ass because they get freaking 20 Soviet Volunteer Divisions including Tank Divisions lol.

Playing Japan I learn to hate those Russki mountain divisions.

 

[Black_Shade]

I keep seeing China kicking Japan's ass because they get freaking 20 Soviet Volunteer Divisions including Tank Divisions lol.

One of the issues is the Soviets can send volunteers to several of the warlords at the same time, which is how they get ridiculous numbers of divisions helping out on the front line.

A German or Italian player can do the same thing with Japan, Manchukuo, and Mengkukuo. Typically I send air voulenteers to both Japan (250 cas and 200 fighters) and Mengkukuo (450 tacs) at the start of the war as Germany for the air experience, but don't send any land forces.

 

[PurpulaPhoenixum53]

So apparently this is rare case. TIL.

But, yes in everyone; every. one. Japan steamrolls China by 39/40 and then procedes to smash the Dutch East Indies and Philippines by mid 41. I've never seen the American AI win the Pacific. I've yet see a game, on historical, have the Allies win the Pacific historically. That being said I know on non-historical I've seen a couple games where the Allies, not the Americans land and defeat Japan. But I've yet to see the Americans actually achieve anything productive in the Pacific. I'm assuming that the USA in most of my games doesn't do so well against Japan and envitably loses the Pacific against them.

 

[kettyo]

Historical USA is currently scripted to mass forces in Britain prior to the war and invade Axis as soon as possible. This makes Japan neglected but Axis is indeed in a much more problematic situation than before. Problem for USA with this is that they won't have much of a home garrison and easy to be surprised by played-led Mexico or even Canada

 

[Crixus]

The problem is that USA don't contest Japan in the pacific during the latest patch.

On a sidenote I think that the decision for Japan to escalate the war in China needs to be removed since the point of that decision is to give more resources into the offensive in china and at the same time anger the USA(they gain war support every time Japan does the decision and only need 30% warsupport for the focus The Giant Wakes). Historically Japan underestimated the chinese and didn't pull all resources into that campaign, which the debuff represents: 'The Marco Polo Bridge Incident'; Attack Bonus against Chinese countries: -50.0% Defense Bonus against Country: -25.0%.
This decision wouldn't be a problem if the USA acually were threatening Japan earlier by going The Giant Wakes and dominate the pacific as a consequence, which it does not as of now.

 

[Flipity]

Japan has to remain strong so they can put up at least a little challenge the to US.

 

[Caeric]

I'm my most recent playthroughs in the current patch I often find Japan stalled into 41, often not having moved past the first 2-3 regions past the coast, if not sometimes even still stuck in Beijing by the time they declare on the Phillipines, some games even outright being beaten to the point of white peacing China. I've had to try to help them out at multiple points just to prevent them from getting steamrolled by the Allies from fighting at so many ridiculous fronts.

Edit: I've also found them occationally declaring on the Phils earlier than Barbarossa or just around the same time.

 

[Garth_Vader]

I am in my third game. The first game as Soviets Japan took all of India, Aus, NZ, and I ended up having to invade the home islands.
Second game as the US they got run off the continent by China and I took the home islands in 42.
Third game as Germany they were not doing well in China and got invaded and finished off in 42 by the US.

 

[blahmaster6k]

The problem is that USA don't contest Japan in the pacific during the latest patch.

On a sidenote I think that the decision for Japan to escalate the war in China needs to be removed since the point of that decision is to give more resources into the offensive in china and at the same time anger the USA(they gain war support every time Japan does the decision and only need 30% warsupport for the focus The Giant Wakes). Historically Japan underestimated the chinese and didn't pull all resources into that campaign, which the debuff represents: 'The Marco Polo Bridge Incident'; Attack Bonus against Chinese countries: -50.0% Defense Bonus against Country: -25.0%.
This decision wouldn't be a problem if the USA acually were threatening Japan earlier by going The Giant Wakes and dominate the pacific as a consequence, which it does not as of now.

This. My most recent Japan game I built up a massive Intel network in the USA, I had 100% naval Intel on them so I could see all their mission regions. They had nothing in the Pacific at all, except for their submarines. Their entire surface fleet was patrolling the east coast and Mediterranean.

 

[Meglok]

The 2nd Sino-Japanese War is about as good as it is going to get for now. And in no way should China be buffed. Until and unless the ai gets better at dealing with fronts, invasions, garrisons, and assigning fleets across oceans you are going to be lucky to see anything close to historical events.

Good rule of thumb, if you don't like the way the Chinese campaign is going, intervene. If you leave it to the ai you are agreeing to accept the results.

 

[ruvo]

Playing Japan using the Expert AI mod (highly recommended) at tier 4 difficulty (veteran?) it is WICKED hard to defeat China. It played very historically IMO, even to the point of being difficult to extricate troops in '41 to invade other areas.

 

[Vityviktor]

In all my games, historical or not, Japan takes China before 1943. The USA or the UK entering the war don't make a difference. Japan takes China and the remaining warlords, and makes an absolutely border-gorey peace treaty with a Reorganized China in the middle surrounded by Japanese annexed territory and a few random warlords like Yunnan being released as puppets. Then, it usually ends up advancing all way to Indochina, India or Australia.

I don't know if China should be buffed, but Japan is definitely far more powerful (in terms of Army, Navy, Industry, Manpower and powerful modifiers) than it should be, specially in land combat. Maybe adding some debuffs related to Army-Navy rivalry, maybe implement nasty land offensive modifiers like in the Spanish Civil War. And maybe teach Chinese AI about how to actually defend against naval invasions.

EDIT: These are from an all-AI game i'm currenty observing. No checksum editing mods, only cosmetic ones. July, 1944.:

Spoiler

 

[PurpulaPhoenixum53]

In all my games, historical or not, Japan takes China before 1943. The USA or the UK entering the war don't make a difference. Japan takes China and the remaining warlords, and makes an absolutely border-gorey peace treaty with a Reorganized China in the middle surrounded by Japanese annexed territory and a few random warlords like Yunnan being released as puppets. Then, it usually ends up advancing all way to Indochina, India or Australia.

I don't know if China should be buffed, but Japan is definitely far more powerful (in terms of Army, Navy, Industry, Manpower and powerful modifiers) than it should be, specially in land combat. Maybe adding some debuffs related to Army-Navy rivalry, maybe implement nasty land offensive modifiers like in the Spanish Civil War. And maybe teach Chinese AI about how to actually defend against naval invasions.

EDIT: These are from an all-AI game i'm currenty observing. No checksum editing mods, only cosmetic ones. July, 1944.:

Spoiler

View attachment 593688

View attachment 593689

Those pictures are exactally the things I see commonly in my games. I agree that perhaps China doesn't need to be debuffed, but it shouldn't be that easy for Japan to steamroll of the South Pacific.