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Commander666

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Having watched the Japan AI mess up the attack against China time after time, I realize one of the consistent faults is that the Japanese AI simply does not use its many Garrison units placed appropriately. While it does employ a few GAR, every game I see Japan lose Shanghai not once, not twice, but thrice because it always leaves that key province empty. I mean, it is a frigging stockpile at certain times besides being a main ESE target, AND major naval base.

With a base revolt risk of 47% and nil suppression given, no wonder partisans frequently erupt there. There is no reason for this kind of bad play - even from an AI. :mad:
 

Mr_B0narpte

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Perhaps try playing 1.11, or even better Jarski's improved 1936 mod to see an improved Japan AI. :)
 

Quiller

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Commander talk to the people from CORE... they have japan doing pretty good at the moment (it is even balanced very well now and that is the difficulty of japan!!!)
 

Commander666

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You are both right.
 

Derek XC

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I agree I feel like Japan builds too many Garrison Units also! I've seen so many games where they have stacks of garrison units sitting in there Home Islands. Not to mention the waste of manpower to create those units.
 

Pioniere

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Yes the Japan-AI could have been better, but I does win onver China from time to time.
Japan should do slitely better vs. China and make Australia a puppet if it annex it.
 

Derek XC

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Does anyone else run into a manpower issue when playing as Japan? I conquered China, all of India, Australia and Dutch East Indies but now Germany is getting wrecked by SU and I only have 50 manpower left and no hope of helping them. Ended up switching to Germany to see if I can turn them around.
 

Pang Bingxun

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Does anyone else run into a manpower issue when playing as Japan?

Well, a human japan should be able to mobilize all its manpower into the miltary relative soon, before 1942 for certain. But similar to germany japan starts a with a lot of manpower relative to to its daily gain of manpower. Thus you may have a big military that in battle and due to attrition looses quite some manpower each day. So running into manpower issues is likely unless you properly prepare for it.

Donnot mobilize all manpower. Keep 20 to 50% of your current manpower in military as unused manpower. So if the mouseover on the manpower symbol on the top or in the production menu says you have 2000 manpower in the military, than you should keep 400 to 1000 manpower in the pool. Keeping proper manpower reserves is important for most major nations, namely germany, soviet union, uk, japan, china, italy and maybe france. The USA are a bit of an exception, as they start with very little manpower, thus shifting the focus in favour of having a greater portion of available manpower mobilized.

As japan a key element is to manage your puppets. Manchukuo, a puppeted China and a puppeted India can give you a total of 250 divisions, thus effectively doubling your army size. This might allow you to outnumber soviet union. Techrush infantry divisions for high fighting efficiency of both japanese divisions and those of your puppets.

Always keep in mind attrition. The low ESE resulting from low infra and partisans and the climates japan encounters in the far east cause a great deal of attrition. Logistic wizards(-50% on attrition except hostile front attrition) and possibly the -15% supply consumption ministers may help with that. But optimizing for a proper supply chain(meaning routes that "carry" ESE) and minimizing exposure to bad climate and hostile front attrition is likely the major consideration on the attrition front. Without proper consideration for attrition, attrition may cause bigger manpower losses than actual fighting. Chances are that with proper attention on both attrition and fighting, attrition losses will still outweight combat losses in say a 5 year average.
 

Commander666

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Make strategic use of the huge manpower invested in the many GAR. For starters, bring them all to Japan home Island. That let's you siphon off the hundreds of supplies stockpiled amongst the outer islands and so significantly help fund your supply slider for some time.

Next, use those GAR strategically. 8-10 of them placed on your front line can make an excellent block that frees up your infantry from doing same defensive role. And whenever possible - if a stack isn't fighting or moving, AND IF A GAR IS PRESENT - pull that GAR into your stack to eliminate Hostile Front Attrition. But as you get deeper into China, your GAR should mostly be doing suppression.
 

Pioniere

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[QUOTE="Pang Bingxun, post: 21811051, member: 414463"
It already does progress a lot farther than IRL.[/QUOTE]

Yes sometimes the jap-AI win. But I forgot that Japan does it better in 1.10 and 1.11 than in 1.8.
 

bshirt73

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Well, a human japan should be able to mobilize all its manpower into the miltary relative soon, before 1942 for certain. But similar to germany japan starts a with a lot of manpower relative to to its daily gain of manpower. Thus you may have a big military that in battle and due to attrition looses quite some manpower each day. So running into manpower issues is likely unless you properly prepare for it.

Donnot mobilize all manpower. Keep 20 to 50% of your current manpower in military as unused manpower. So if the mouseover on the manpower symbol on the top or in the production menu says you have 2000 manpower in the military, than you should keep 400 to 1000 manpower in the pool. Keeping proper manpower reserves is important for most major nations, namely germany, soviet union, uk, japan, china, italy and maybe france. The USA are a bit of an exception, as they start with very little manpower, thus shifting the focus in favour of having a greater portion of available manpower mobilized.

As japan a key element is to manage your puppets. Manchukuo, a puppeted China and a puppeted India can give you a total of 250 divisions, thus effectively doubling your army size. This might allow you to outnumber soviet union. Techrush infantry divisions for high fighting efficiency of both japanese divisions and those of your puppets.

Always keep in mind attrition. The low ESE resulting from low infra and partisans and the climates japan encounters in the far east cause a great deal of attrition. Logistic wizards(-50% on attrition except hostile front attrition) and possibly the -15% supply consumption ministers may help with that. But optimizing for a proper supply chain(meaning routes that "carry" ESE) and minimizing exposure to bad climate and hostile front attrition is likely the major consideration on the attrition front. Without proper consideration for attrition, attrition may cause bigger manpower losses than actual fighting. Chances are that with proper attention on both attrition and fighting, attrition losses will still outweight combat losses in say a 5 year average.


Wow, as always, excellent data & concepts from Pang. Thank you sir!!
 

MJF

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Every time I start a game as USA I watch Japan destroy China - Before Pearl Harbor.
 

Pang Bingxun

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Every time I start a game as USA I watch Japan destroy China - Before Pearl Harbor.

Do you mean to say that in an unmodded game of 1.09 or later Japan annexes China before 1942, probably by an event chain triggered after Chongqing has fallen to Japan?
 

MJF

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Do you mean to say that in an unmodded game of 1.09 or later Japan annexes China before 1942, probably by an event chain triggered after Chongqing has fallen to Japan?
Basically:
Jap_Crush_Chi.jpg
 

Commander666

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Thanks a lot for the thorough info Pang! Going to start a new Japan 36' game now since I ran out of manpower. I'll use your info to improve my gameplay this time.

The greatest reason for Japan running out of MP is reinforcements because of combat losses... and not attrition. Any suggestion that 5 years of attrition is greater than reinforcements for 5 years of war really should show some data to support the notion.

Also, how do you win in China if you follow the suggestion to minimize exposure to hostile front attrition? Other than my suggestion to include GAR in stack to fully eliminate that type of attrition when you are not attacking , there is no way other than to not be adjacent to the enemy? That won't help Japan win.

Likewise, the suggestion to use Logistics Wizards to reduce attrition is similarly non-real. Logistic Wizards will not help you win battles. But Offensive and Defensive specialists definitely will. While LWs do save on attrition, they will surely lose far more on battle loses (KIA). Logistics Wizards should rarely be used in battle, but used extensively throughout China when they are not on the front-line.

Instead of giving dubious suggestions that don't fit real play, perhaps it might be more helpful to give tips that actually can be used. As there clearly is a problem with the frequent changes of leaders needed by Japan in China (changing to LWs and Defense and Offense as needed), are you aware that there is a trick to change leaders in a way that eliminates the 7-day wait period for new leader to become active?

Finally, Japan saving MP comes down to one thing - a quick win in China because of superior strategy. And if it takes reaching low MP to build the units you need to do that, you should do so because you can always recover MP by simply disbanding any land units not contributing to crushing China. Certainly saving MP where you can using LWs, and minimizing attrition where possible by staying out of deserts and jungles as much as is practical all add to your bottom line MP wise. But efficient fighting is where it really matters. In short, the Chinese must be surrounded and eliminated pocket by pocket. That will save you very much MP. Fighting over and over the same Chinese units is what is really causing the critical MP shortage some players encounter. :)
 
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Commander666

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Basically:

That is about average for Japan. With a bit more time it gains more territory, but eventually it will be pushed back so its army is split at the coast.

I, for one, have never seen Japan AI win in China. It would be rather "refreshing" to have such a non-historical outcome - especially if playing USA because Japan's futile war in China has a huge negative impact on its Pacific abilities.
 

MJF

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That is about average for Japan. With a bit more time it gains more territory, but eventually it will be pushed back so its army is split at the coast.

I, for one, have never seen Japan AI win in China. It would be rather "refreshing" to have such a non-historical outcome - especially if playing USA because Japan's futile war in China has a huge negative impact on its Pacific abilities.
Not a good time to play USA:
Not_AGood_Time4_USA.png