Japan is underpowered in EUIV

[Homusubi]

I don't really understand where the whole "pig iron" thing comes from. Katana (yes, that is the correct plural) are made of Tamahagane, which is different and requires a special process to make... there was a tamahagane shortage in Japan until the 1970s when production resumed, and that wouldn't have happened if they could have just used western pig iron.

Also, there's a LOT of confusion about the whole "one-sided swords" concept. Focusing on one edge makes said edge more effective. Also, Japanese sword styles use that edge exclusively (with the exceptionof iaido iirc), so it stops being a disadvantage.


EDIT: this next point is important: the anti-kats are as bad as the over-the-top katana evangelists, and certainly are as likely to use underhand tactics. For example, the fabled Youtube video where a katana breaks on wood. There are four possibilities:

1. The video is a fake.
2. The katana was not a real nihonto.
3. The video doesn't exist, and is being mentioned on the assumption that nobody will google it.
4. The maker of the video is extremely rich.

I'm sure you'll agree that theory 4 is less likely to be true than the others. Of the others, my guess is that the katana was fake and the user had no idea how to use one and/or deliberately used the blunt side. Fake katana are a thing - they're usually gunto, that is to say 1940s mass-produced machine swords, and are the most common type of sword used in criminal acts in the UK. That isn't to say that the two kinds are impossible to distinguish - it's easy if you know what to look for (http://www.tofugu.com/2015/02/18/view-japanese-sword-like-pro/ gives a good summary, although I regret to say that I'm nowhere near being able to do all of that. How often is it that you get to look at katana anyway?)

 

[RiseofBubblez]

I don't really understand where the whole "pig iron" thing comes from. Katana (yes, that is the correct plural) are made of Tamahagane, which is different and requires a special process to make... there was a tamahagane shortage in Japan until the 1970s when production resumed, and that wouldn't have happened if they could have just used western pig iron.

Also, there's a LOT of confusion about the whole "one-sided swords" concept. Focusing on one edge makes said edge more effective. Also, Japanese sword styles use that edge exclusively (with the exceptionof iaido iirc), so it stops being a disadvantage.


EDIT: this next point is important: the anti-kats are as bad as the over-the-top katana evangelists, and certainly are as likely to use underhand tactics. For example, the fabled Youtube video where a katana breaks on wood. There are four possibilities:

1. The video is a fake.
2. The katana was not a real nihonto.
3. The video doesn't exist, and is being mentioned on the assumption that nobody will google it.
4. The maker of the video is extremely rich.

I'm sure you'll agree that theory 4 is less likely to be true than the others. Of the others, my guess is that the katana was fake and the user had no idea how to use one and/or deliberately used the blunt side. Fake katana are a thing - they're usually gunto, that is to say 1940s mass-produced machine swords, and are the most common type of sword used in criminal acts in the UK. That isn't to say that the two kinds are impossible to distinguish - it's easy if you know what to look for (http://www.tofugu.com/2015/02/18/view-japanese-sword-like-pro/ gives a good summary, although I regret to say that I'm nowhere near being able to do all of that. How often is it that you get to look at katana anyway?)

Yeah the pig iron part was me being an idiot...

Nevertheless being a single edged sword is fine for fighting a single opponent or a small group but in a battle one edge suddenly becomes unwieldy as you are stuck in a large group and its not so easy to twist so as to get the blade to kill an enemy.

Nevertheless even if the one edge makes it more effective it also means that said edge will become blunt much faster due to all the stress being focussed on said one edge.

As for the video, I can't link it because it was removed from YouTube but whether it is real or not the point still stands. Katana can break relatively easily due to the metal Tamahagane, as you said, it requires a special process to make due to the carbon making it either too flimsy or too brittle. This is why the swordsmiths fold it over a maximum of 8 times to purge the carbon but nevertheless (I DO love that word) the Katana can break relatively easily. I'm not saying that Katanas are horrible swords (although I MAY have described them as such in previous posts) but they certainly aren't the God-swords people think they are and they are certainly no better than cutting through metal bars than other swords.

I will admit that the person in the wood video likely was using the Katana wrong because they aren't meant to be swing so much as slit- slitting is much more effective as the Tamahagane generally won't be able to withstand much swinging- but even so, slitting isn't very effective for battles although it could work for 1 v 1 fights.

But let me admit, I love Katana, I love everything about them, but they certainly aren't the God swords people seem to think they are.

 

[Morwys]

How is it that anyone can read the OP and still think it's serious

I'm a historian. I'm always serious.

 

[Sunspawn]

I'm a historian. I'm always serious.

I'd suggest not reading things on the internet then, because we don't like uptight hardasses who are always serious here (in the internet).

 

[wingzero890]

this video show just how op samurai really are against muskets tercio stands no chance lol europe

 

[RiseofBubblez]

this video show just how op samurai really are against muskets tercio stands no chance lol europe

Aaah but no one can defeat an army which has Tom Cruise in it so really the Samurai are doomed...

 

[EU3NOOB]

France is underpowered. Needs a buff.

Is as weak as Byzantium.

 

[Chamboozer]

I'm a historian. I'm always serious.

As am I when it comes to actual history, which isn't what this is. It's a good parody.

 

[aitaituo]

Also, there's a LOT of confusion about the whole "one-sided swords" concept. Focusing on one edge makes said edge more effective. Also, Japanese sword styles use that edge exclusively (with the exceptionof iaido iirc), so it stops being a disadvantage.

I was rather confused by that point. One edged and two edged swords are not inherently superior or inferior to each other.

this video show just how op samurai really are against muskets tercio stands no chance lol europe

Actually, by the end of the Warring States Period, Japanese armies were using their own variation of a pike and shot formation. The makers of the Last Samurai were actually well aware of this and portrayed the rebelling samurai anachronistically to emphasize the theme of rejecting modernization for traditional values.

 

[Homusubi]

Yeah the pig iron part was me being an idiot...

Nevertheless being a single edged sword is fine for fighting a single opponent or a small group but in a battle one edge suddenly becomes unwieldy as you are stuck in a large group and its not so easy to twist so as to get the blade to kill an enemy.

Nevertheless even if the one edge makes it more effective it also means that said edge will become blunt much faster due to all the stress being focussed on said one edge.

As for the video, I can't link it because it was removed from YouTube but whether it is real or not the point still stands. Katana can break relatively easily due to the metal Tamahagane, as you said, it requires a special process to make due to the carbon making it either too flimsy or too brittle. This is why the swordsmiths fold it over a maximum of 8 times to purge the carbon but nevertheless (I DO love that word) the Katana can break relatively easily. I'm not saying that Katanas are horrible swords (although I MAY have described them as such in previous posts) but they certainly aren't the God-swords people think they are and they are certainly no better than cutting through metal bars than other swords.

I will admit that the person in the wood video likely was using the Katana wrong because they aren't meant to be swing so much as slit- slitting is much more effective as the Tamahagane generally won't be able to withstand much swinging- but even so, slitting isn't very effective for battles although it could work for 1 v 1 fights.

But let me admit, I love Katana, I love everything about them, but they certainly aren't the God swords people seem to think they are.

Thanks for being grown up on the internet!

P.S. This isn't really directed at you since you confessed your love for katana in the post, but can you really blame a sword if it doesn't work when used wrongly?
P.P.S. Why would anyone try to cut through a metal bar with a sword? I doubt that was even that common in the Sengoku period.

 

[Morwys]

As am I when it comes to actual history, which isn't what this is. It's a good parody.

Everything is history, there's no parody.



See? This is my serious face.

 

[Morwys]

I'd suggest not reading things on the internet then, because we don't like uptight hardasses who are always serious here (in the internet).

I don't care about what you like. Only about the facts. Of history.

 

[Homusubi]

I don't care about what you like. Only about the facts. Of history.

Are you sure you play EUIV?

 

[chrnno]

That moment when you are not sure if people are making jokes and playing along with other's or not.

 

[Witty Name Here]

That moment when you are not sure if people are making jokes and playing along with other's or not.

I typed this entire thread in my home made kimono while polishing my masamume katana.

I ensure you this is the epitome of seriousness, m'lady. *tips fedora*

 

[chrnno]

I typed this entire thread in my home made kimono while polishing my masamume katana.

I ensure you this is the epitome of seriousness, m'lady. *tips fedora*

I was talking about this page specifically though you answering so quickly and with such certainty does make one wonder...

 

[EU3NOOB]

I typed this entire thread in my home made kimono while polishing my masamume katana.

I ensure you this is the epitome of seriousness, m'lady. *tips fedora*

*tips fedora harder*

 

[Morwys]

Are you sure you play EUIV?

Yes, indeed I am. Only true historians master EUIV, all else just pretend to understand what's going on. ALL HISTORICAL. All the time.

 

[Will Steel]

Yes, indeed I am. Only true historians master EUIV, all else just pretend to understand what's going on. ALL HISTORICAL. All the time.

I am a historian as well, and I always take jokes as jokes and sarcasm as sarcasm. I find them funny.

...As long as someone doesn't spout nonsense of course. Whether that be Eurocentrism, 'Murica worship or similar.

 

[DmUa]

As am I when it comes to actual history

- good joke