Japan is a ridiculous now...

[Heindrich]

I haven't played in East Asia since the Denmark patch so I am not sure if this behaviour is new or if it has been the case for a while... but in the past the Japanese were diplomatically isolated until they more or less consolidated into a proper Shogunate, which means if you play as Korea/Ming, you don't need to fight Japan any time in the early game.

Now however, Japan (Ashikaga to be precise) regularly allies with the Manchu factions, which is annoying enough if they worked like the HRE Emperor, i.e. if I attack their ally, only the Shogun/Emperor gets a call to arms, but for some reason, ANY war involving ANY Japanese faction somehow unites the entire vassal swarm and you suddenly end up fighting 100k angry Japanese in 1445!

What are you supposed to do against this?! Am I missing something obvious here? Japan is mired in civil war and anarchy, which realistically could be exploited by a foreign power capable of projecting power onto the Japanese home islands, but instead Japan is willing and able to meddle in mainland Asia from the start of the game because any conflict involving any Japanese faction suddenly unites all the warring daimyo into one unbreakable coalition...

 

[Kergan]

I recollect from when playing Japan several versions back that the Shogunate government was somewhat like a post-revoke HRE indeed: attacking a Daimyo is the same as attacking the Shogun. And yes, the Shogun brings all of the Daimyos along.

That being said, disloyal subjects avoid land combat (but not naval) and keep their troops in their own territory unless you send troops their way, so you can ignore any Daimyo that isn't loyal. What more, the Daimyos will all become disloyal if you stack wipe the Shogun.

My Japan games were a while ago but if memory serves I was struggling to keep more than a few Daimyos loyal without spending boat loads of prestige. The others just won't participate - except at sea - unless you invade them. So you're actually fighting something closer to 15-25k troops in the early game in practice, knowing that the balance is plotting on an ever weaker Shogun.

 

[deathbypie]

Odd, I have never seen anyone from Japan ally outside of Japan.

But anyway, build boats. In just a few years Japan's internal years will result in almost no navy for any of them, disloyal subjects will be everywhere. It is highly unlikely anyone will make it across the water to attack.

 

[Heindrich]

Odd, I have never seen anyone from Japan ally outside of Japan.

But anyway, build boats. In just a few years Japan's internal years will result in almost no navy for any of them, disloyal subjects will be everywhere. It is highly unlikely anyone will make it across the water to attack.

Maybe it's another 1.24 change to nerf Ming/Korea, but I started a few games to see what happens, and Ashikaga seems to ally Haixi or Jianzhou most of the time.

Also whilst I think Ming can handle a massive early war against Japan if necessary, this kinda screws over Korea. The problem is that to win a war and have enough war score to get what you want, you need to invade and occupy at least some of the Japanese home islands... It's difficult for anyone to have the naval transport capacity to do this in the early game, and invading an island is always risky because a single decisive defeat will likely lead to a huge stackwipe.

 

[Zelius]

Maybe it's another 1.24 change to nerf Ming/Korea, but I started a few games to see what happens, and Ashikaga seems to ally Haixi or Jianzhou most of the time.

Also whilst I think Ming can handle a massive early war against Japan if necessary, this kinda screws over Korea. The problem is that to win a war and have enough war score to get what you want, you need to invade and occupy at least some of the Japanese home islands... It's difficult for anyone to have the naval transport capacity to do this in the early game, and invading an island is always risky because a single decisive defeat will likely lead to a huge stackwipe.

Wait until 5 years after the war began, and your target's allies won't be counted for warscore anyway, so you can easily 100% then.

 

[I_am_Nemo]

Isn't the best play for Korea to just go full colonial anyhow? Horde lands are wrong culture/religion and poor as a bonus, iirc.

 

[Less2]

Isn't the best play for Korea to just go full colonial anyhow? Horde lands are wrong culture/religion and poor as a bonus, iirc.

Best play for almost anyone in the region is to rush the Hordes and become Manchu. Also getting the gold mine before its time to develop Renaissance so you can get it and a 10+ production gold province together.

 

[bbqftw]

Isn't the best play for Korea to just go full colonial anyhow? Horde lands are wrong culture/religion and poor as a bonus, iirc.

at least you should culture shift to manchu because magic Manchu shaman conjure horse from thin air.

And then that begs the question why not switch out of the horrific Korean idea set for a top 3 idea set.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

at least you should culture shift to manchu because magic Manchu shaman conjure horse from thin air.

And then that begs the question why not switch out of the horrific Korean idea set for a top 3 idea set.

Girin is also upstream, there's a ton of reasons to take this land early. And yes the only reason you'd stay as Korea is to role play or if their achievement requires you to avoid changing tag (don't remember).

 

[HansBaer]

Not everybody wants to do a wc. And some actuality even want to play the tag they selected and don't min max. As Korea I would probably conquer Japan first, then ally some of Mings tributaries, cancel tributary myself and wait for them to dow (or don't they because of historical friend modifier, if it's still in place).

 

[Grif_E]

If you're Korea or Ming don't DoW an Ashikaga ally before Sengoku/Onin events/circumstances get going in full. Time your declaration to lay into one of the larger Daimyo/Shogun fleets with your consolidated navy. Problem solved. Things are super easy again. You're welcome.