Xenophobia is something Westerners claim Japan is, because Japan doesn't let everyone in the world flood into their country
Japan Empire government type
- Thread starter firecage
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Well, speaking only about the game time period, they did keep out almost everyone once the Tokugawa took power, so from 1600ish to 1854. But that's a choice from our history, not something that necessarily has to be represented in the game, which should be open to alternatives, since we are the ones pulling the strings.
As others have said, perhaps there could be two decisions available to reflect a ruler who wished to cede power back to the Emperor/Empress or a daimyo/Shogun who wished to keep it for themselves. Somewhat different government types and bonuses. I suppose there could also be one to turn insular, though I don't think that would be an advantage in this sort of game.
I don't think unification speed deserves any particular nerf. This game is all about trying to do better than history. Nobody wants to play Japan and wait 150 years to be a full country.
What? Japan is extremely xenophobic, both then and today- I'm not sure just where you're getting the opposite impression.
On the topic at hand: Why does Japan need a specific government type exactly? Pre-unification, it needs the extra relations cap because of all the daimyo, that is understandable, but there's nothing that makes it particularly stand out for it to deserve one otherwise. Changing the localisation from Emperor to Shogun is completely appropriate though, that I agree.
Well, speaking only about the game time period, they did keep out almost everyone once the Tokugawa took power, so from 1600ish to 1854. But that's a choice from our history, not something that necessarily has to be represented in the game, which should be open to alternatives, since we are the ones pulling the strings.
As others have said, perhaps there could be two decisions available to reflect a ruler who wished to cede power back to the Emperor/Empress or a daimyo/Shogun who wished to keep it for themselves. Somewhat different government types and bonuses. I suppose there could also be one to turn insular, though I don't think that would be an advantage in this sort of game.
I don't think unification speed deserves any particular nerf. This game is all about trying to do better than history. Nobody wants to play Japan and wait 150 years to be a full country.
I disagree. The unification speed for Japan should be slower (and the same goes for HRE, which is the far larger pet peeve of mine) -- it is clear that Paradox made it easy to unify Japan (and HRE), but it is very unnatural. "Japan" shouldn't be able to eat Daimyo as it can now -- Ashikaga Shogunate was very weak, after all. By the way, no Shogun would want to return power to the emperor unless he was forced to do so. Shogun becoming the emperor is bit more plausible (the majority of Japanese people before the Edo period didn't even know who emperor is, anyway), but is very unlikely.
In general, Japan in EU4 is a mess. Porting Japan from EU3: DW with EU4 provinces/daimyos would be much more realistic.
Finally, both xenophobia and martial strength of Japan are way exaggerated. The isolation coming from being an island nation (unlike to get or become the target of CBs), and Sakoku decision should be enough. After all, the only time Japan fought foreign powers in this time period (aside from the colonization of Ainu, which was much like European colonization of North America, and was in the same timeframe as well) is Hideyoshi's invasions -- and it was much more of his (delusional)idea than the sustained foreign policy. However, many Japanese individuals went oversea to trade or serve as mercenaries before the Sakoku, so they weren't unusually xenophobic, neither.
Well, speaking only about the game time period, they did keep out almost everyone once the Tokugawa took power, so from 1600ish to 1854. But that's a choice from our history, not something that necessarily has to be represented in the game, which should be open to alternatives, since we are the ones pulling the strings.
There's already an 'Enforce Sakoku Law' decision, which mostly has to do with missionary strength and preventing provinces flipping to Catholic. It makes a certain amount of sense, as there really were a decent number of converts to Catholicism (around 300,000 in a country of 20 million), and they were seen as a threat to the country, although presenting religion as the reason for Sakoku is not telling the whole story.
Slower isn't fun.
But that's a matter of opinion, of course.As for the Shogun, I only meant that, since we assume the role of a ruler/omniscient overseer of the nation, I'd prefer to have the choice. As I said earlier, I'm a fan of reasonable alternatives instead of strict history. Would a traditional Shogun have wanted to return power? Almost certainly not, though you can always imagine plausible fictions. But I don't see why that has to be enforced on a human player. You ARE the Shogun now. Are you a secret supporter of the Imperial family and want to restore them? You decide!
/still hoping for an eventual "Historical/Flexible" type game option to be implemented.
Really I don't think the Shogun should be able to annex until 1500 and the Daimyo can't each other fight until 1467 or so.
I also think there should be an event to cause Oda to appear or something.
Japan has it simply for gameplay reasons, I think. Which I'm okay with. I personally think Persia and perhaps Mughals should get one as well, or at least one in the same vein as Tibet's.
I also think there should be an event to cause Oda to appear or something.
Japan has it simply for gameplay reasons, I think. Which I'm okay with. I personally think Persia and perhaps Mughals should get one as well, or at least one in the same vein as Tibet's.
No, its not. Militarily, several shôgun could have virtually wiped the imperial court from the face of the earth without much effort. They did not (but in more than one instance they had a say into *who* would become the next emperor - the Kamakura bakufu did, Ashikaga no Takauji did...), which in turn gave them access to their sole source of legitimacy and access to an existing administrative infrastructure that was centered around the imperial court. The division into two different administrative layers that worked together was working more efficiently. By 1600, when Japan actually was "reunited", that administrative reason didn't really matter anymore since the strife of the Sengoku-period dismantled what was left of the classic polity anyway.
In either case - an emperor would not be able to function as overlord of the warrior caste since he is unable to fill the role of a feudal overlord, so he'd in turn require a shôgun to fill that rule (just a shôgun which was under his control - which is actually what all the civil wars about during the Japanese medieval, who controls who?).
Also, that the Ashikaga were weak and merely one of many (a primus inter pares) paradigm is a relic from the 1960s, historical research has progressed a bit further; as a matter of fact, 1400-1467 saw them at their peak of power. They were however dealing with a significantly more decentralized state than the Hôjô before them did. Its however, of course, anachronistic to have Sengoku in 1444, but the way it is works pretty well in game to simulate civil war, so I'm fine with that.
Or alternatively,if you start westernising,you get an early Meiji restoration event.
In view of Japanese cultural background, I think the Shogun would be still Shogun as de facto ruler, the Emperor would be still Emperor as a powerless de jure ruler if medieval Japan expanded to overseas.
How about changing the description of display as the following?
Japanese monarch still described "Shogun/Shogunate" after changing government.
Even though the Emperor might exists, they don't appear in the game.
How about changing the description of display as the following?
Japanese monarch still described "Shogun/Shogunate" after changing government.
Even though the Emperor might exists, they don't appear in the game.
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The Daimyo in 1444 are there to make the civil war easier, not to imply the civil war is already going on (any more than France's dukes imply its in Civil War, though it sort of was 10 years earlier with the Armagnacs). A better event to actually set off the civil war and weaken the Shogunate might help. Tokugawa Japan in later start dates still has Daimyo.
Some Shoguns were offered the title of King by the Chinese which would have let them get rid of the Emperor, but they refused because it would imply vassal status to China.
The Ashikaga were still Shoguns throughout most of the warring states period. There was only a 12 year interregnum between the last Ashikaga officially resigning (he was deposed 15 in practice years earlier) and the first Tokugawa. Oda Nobunaga had a puppet Shogun for the first 5 years of his (tenuous) control of the country.
Other Asians are pretty well aware of it too.
Technically Japan is xenophilic, its just also very racist about it. Not necessarily more than other peoples, but racial science considered out of date in Europe and America is still pretty popular in Japan and Korea.
Some Shoguns were offered the title of King by the Chinese which would have let them get rid of the Emperor, but they refused because it would imply vassal status to China.
The Ashikaga were still Shoguns throughout most of the warring states period. There was only a 12 year interregnum between the last Ashikaga officially resigning (he was deposed 15 in practice years earlier) and the first Tokugawa. Oda Nobunaga had a puppet Shogun for the first 5 years of his (tenuous) control of the country.
Other Asians are pretty well aware of it too.
Technically Japan is xenophilic, its just also very racist about it. Not necessarily more than other peoples, but racial science considered out of date in Europe and America is still pretty popular in Japan and Korea.
This should be done. What bothers me is, when you unite Japan as a daimyo, you lose your awesome Daimyo geovernment and end up with Feudal Monarchy... hooray, forget about great military bonuses, I take the vassal income...
There should be something like "Old shogunate", like shogunate is now and "New shogunate" to represent either reestablished power over all of Japan by the Ashikagas or the new power of the once-daimyo who threw down the old shogun.
