Japan Empire government type

[firecage]

This is something that actually bugs me. Why is it that, when you unify Japan, you get a fake empire government type? Aka just a normal monarchy with special stuff to make its name into an Empire and the monarchs title into Emperor?

Personally I would much more prefer it if the Japan country(tag?) when Japan is disunified is the normal empire government type, due to it having a lot of vassals. And when you unify it, it gets the special Japanese empire government type. Though honestly I can't think of bonuses for it.

 

[hashinshin]

Japan government type:

+5% discipline.
+10% moral.
-50% culture acceptance.

 

[Zander]

In my own games, I have it modded to just become an Empire (like Byzantium) - those bonuses aren't unreasonable for it, IMHO.

 

[zyphial]

In my own games, I have it modded to just become an Empire (like Byzantium) - those bonuses aren't unreasonable for it, IMHO.

I dunno, assuming a similar-to-history westernization and hyper-nationalism, I think Japan would be singularly bad at reducing unrest. Nanking is not an effective means of promoting integration.

Does the -50% culture acceptance mean 10% required (a bonus) for acceptance or 30% (a penalty)? I feel like the penalty would be suitable, after all they were pretty much the textbook example of xenophobia.

 

[Kirikano]

There's quite a few fake empires in the game, the HRE and Qing come to mind.

 

[hashinshin]

I mean my Japan empire would be monstrously good at combat, yet would need 30% tax base to be accepted in the empire (as in, it would not be reasonably possible.) Hell, might as well make it 40% so you can't even go Humanism then conquer Korea to accept then.

It'd make it so Japan would have large manpower issues, yet the armies they could field on the warpath would be incredibly powerful. It would also mean no territory they gained control of would have an accepted culture and therefore would always be at risk of rebellion.

Though Japan if we want to be accurate should really have a unique method of expansion, where in instead of conquering an area they merely kill everyone inside of it and clear it out, then allow them to colonize the area anew. But that'd just raise issues of everyone calling me racist.

 

[Zander]

I dunno, assuming a similar-to-history westernization and hyper-nationalism, I think Japan would be singularly bad at reducing unrest. Nanking is not an effective means of promoting integration.

Hmm? Empire doesn't give -unrest, it gives +morale and +vassal income. (You can certainly quibble with the need for the latter, but it's not obviously wrong either.)

 

[zyphial]

Hmm? Empire doesn't give -unrest, it gives +morale and +vassal income. (You can certainly quibble with the need for the latter, but it's not obviously wrong either.)

Bad choice of words. I meant unrest in the traditional sense. Basically you aren't going to quietly integrate a state if the people hate you and are extremely resistant to everything you are (because of your xenophobia/intolerance), but the -0.1/mo autonomy pretty much represents effective integration.

 

[Chlodio]

Shogun becoming the emperor doesn't even make sense. What happens to imperial house of Yamato?

There were three shogunates, but yet they didn't get rid of emperors, because emperors of house Yamato have always been big part of Japanese society (even when they were powerless), disbanding that would have caused chaos and end of them who attempt it.

I'm not professional in Japanese history, but that is what I figured with brief reading.

 

[Zander]

Well, it is true that it's odd for the Ashikaga (or whichever Shogun) to start being called "Emperor" at all - though it also wouldn't really make sense to replace you with Yamato. Really it would be more accurate within the time period of the game for you to be called Shogun throughout, since it was only after 1820 that the Shogun really stopped running the show.

 

[Zander]

Bad choice of words. I meant unrest in the traditional sense. Basically you aren't going to quietly integrate a state if the people hate you and are extremely resistant to everything you are (because of your xenophobia/intolerance), but the -0.1/mo autonomy pretty much represents effective integration.

That's the standard for ADM 12 governments, though - and low for governments at higher ADM. Given that you won't unify Japan immediately, it's not really an unusually high rate of integration, at least not for most of the game.

 

[Morricane]

Well, it is true that it's odd for the Ashikaga (or whichever Shogun) to start being called "Emperor" at all - though it also wouldn't really make sense to replace you with Yamato. Really it would be more accurate within the time period of the game for you to be called Shogun throughout, since it was only after 1820 that the Shogun really stopped running the show.

This. Or just have reforming into Empire as Japan give you *a new ruler of a new dynasty*. Problem solved.

 

[Chlodio]

Well, it is true that it's odd for the Ashikaga (or whichever Shogun) to start being called "Emperor" at all - though it also wouldn't really make sense to replace you with Yamato. Really it would be more accurate within the time period of the game for you to be called Shogun throughout, since it was only after 1820 that the Shogun really stopped running the show.

I could't agree more.

 

[lordelenath]

I mean my Japan empire would be monstrously good at combat, yet would need 30% tax base to be accepted in the empire (as in, it would not be reasonably possible.) Hell, might as well make it 40% so you can't even go Humanism then conquer Korea to accept then.

It'd make it so Japan would have large manpower issues, yet the armies they could field on the warpath would be incredibly powerful. It would also mean no territory they gained control of would have an accepted culture and therefore would always be at risk of rebellion.

Though Japan if we want to be accurate should really have a unique method of expansion, where in instead of conquering an area they merely kill everyone inside of it and clear it out, then allow them to colonize the area anew. But that'd just raise issues of everyone calling me racist.

That would be:

a) outside the time frame of EU IV
b) more importantly, Japan isn't the first candidate coming to mind. The annihilation of the Native American societies (and later and to a lesser extent, the Africans) by European colonizers and the USA would certainly warrant your suggestion a lot more. Or even Germany for well known reasons, if time frame is of no importance.

 

[Incompetent]

Shogun becoming the emperor doesn't even make sense. What happens to imperial house of Yamato?

There were three shogunates, but yet they didn't get rid of emperors, because emperors of house Yamato have always been big part of Japanese society (even when they were powerless), disbanding that would have caused chaos and end of them who attempt it.

I'm not professional in Japanese history, but that is what I figured with brief reading.

Yep. I'm not an expert either, but as far as I can make out, the division of Japan we see at the start of the game represents the Warring States period, in which emperor was mostly powerless, and the Ashikaga shoguns were sort of in charge but had little power over the daimyo. It ended with a series of daimyo who managed to consolidate power in one person, but who had no official country-wide title, not even 'shogun', until Tokugawa Ieyasu was appointed shogun in 1603. The form of government ended up the same as it was before, at least on paper, except now the daimyo were too weak to rise up against the shogun and each other.

I don't really like how the special 'Shogunate' government has extra diplomatic relations - it's a fudge, and it encourages unified Japan to behave like the Habsborg, with diplomatic relations all over the place, which is the exact opposite of the insular attitude that Japan took in real life. Instead, I would make it so that Japan has *reduced* diplomatic relations; Daimyo vassals don't take up a diplo slot, but can fight you and other daimyo, and can't be diplo-annexed (instead, as shogun, you always have a CB to forcefully integrate them). Non-Daimyo vassals shouldn't be able to fight each other. That way, you can keep the same government for both the Ashikaga and Tokugawa shogunates.

 

[deezee]

I don't really like how the special 'Shogunate' government has extra diplomatic relations - it's a fudge, and it encourages unified Japan to behave like the Habsborg, with diplomatic relations all over the place, which is the exact opposite of the insular attitude that Japan took in real life. Instead, I would make it so that Japan has *reduced* diplomatic relations; Daimyo vassals don't take up a diplo slot, but can fight you and other daimyo, and can't be diplo-annexed (instead, as shogun, you always have a CB to forcefully integrate them). Non-Daimyo vassals shouldn't be able to fight each other. That way, you can keep the same government for both the Ashikaga and Tokugawa shogunates.

I get the impression that the Shogunate government's diplomatic bonuses is to represent the Ashikaga's position as first among equals and more influential than the other warring states, which makes it extremely in appropriate as a government type for a new Shogunate.

 

[firecage]

There's quite a few fake empires in the game, the HRE and Qing come to mind.

No no, Qing's Celestial Empire is an actual government type. Not a fake one.

Also, as a note. I feel like Japan in this period was shown much better in how it worked in EU3.

 

[Incompetent]

I get the impression that the Shogunate government's diplomatic bonuses is to represent the Ashikaga's position as first among equals and more influential than the other warring states, which makes it extremely in appropriate as a government type for a new Shogunate.

The Ashikaga clan's position is already represented by them being de jure overlords of all the daimyo. It's not like they had some ancient right to be shoguns, either - the Ashikaga shogunate only started in 1338.

A genuine restoration of the power of the Emperor should also be a possibility (it briefly happened in the 14th century), and that should result in a different sort of government.

 

[Kirikano]

No no, Qing's Celestial Empire is an actual government type. Not a fake one.

Also, as a note. I feel like Japan in this period was shown much better in how it worked in EU3.

I think you are confusing Qing with Ming. Qing doesn't have the Celestial Empire government type, just a regular monarchy that says empire.

 

[VolitionNewlove]

Though Japan if we want to be accurate should really have a unique method of expansion, where in instead of conquering an area they merely kill everyone inside of it and clear it out, then allow them to colonize the area anew. But that'd just raise issues of everyone calling me racist.

So, the exception to the "genocide denial" rule here is if it concerns non-Europeans being the perpetrators?

I don't really like how the special 'Shogunate' government has extra diplomatic relations - it's a fudge, and it encourages unified Japan to behave like the Habsborg, with diplomatic relations all over the place, which is the exact opposite of the insular attitude that Japan took in real life.

I was under the impression that Hapsburg-style inheritances were removed for non-Christians.