Japan and the Northern Resource Zone

[Broletariat90]

I've been doing a fair bit of reading on Japan and its plan to attack the USSR as well as the border wars in the late thirties. Now I've also read a few forum posts around the internet that said Japan would most likely not get that far. But what I'm confused about is other than being a traditional enemy, and a communist state, what was the benefit to attacking the Soviets? As far as I know oil wasn't discovered in Siberia till after the war, and though it had a lot of useful metals/minerals it didn't seem as rich as south-east Asia. Not to mention Japan did not have the industry to start drilling after a successful campaign. Am I missing something or does it seem like it would never pay off in the end for the Japanese?

 

[DarthJF]

You're not really missing anything, there's a reason why the southern strategy won in the end.

Northern expansion made sense at first with Korea and Manchuria as tempting targets and with the need to create a safe zone between Russia and Japan in mainland Asia. After these targets were achieved it was mostly just army fanatics wanting to push the frontier further because they tought they could. Japan had intervened in Siberia during the Russian Civil War and many in the army still wanted to "finish" things there. It wasn't until things really came to head at Khalkhin Gol that the Imperial Army was forced to face reality on that front.

 

[Graf Zeppelin]

Well there are reasons for a northern strategy.

1. Eliminate a rival. The Soviets been a constant danger to Japan.
At the point of decision making tho they have been at war and there have been other priorities. The perceived main threat which had to be eliminated was the US (a very sane evaluation from Japan)

2. Resources.East Siberia has many things Japan needs and there was indeed some oil on Sachalin and Kola. Vladiwostock was also a price
But not enough and the most urgently needed resources at that point been in the south.

3. They spanked the Soviets before.
But the last battle went wrong and geting into a two front land war was obviously a bad idea even with the Soviets at war.


In the end Japan was happy the Soviets been busy elsewhere and the Soviets gladly left the Japanese alone.

 

[CruelDwarf]

Kola.

Kola peninsula is right at the border with Finland and Norway. Quite ambitious target for the Japan, don't you think?

 

[Graf Zeppelin]

Kola peninsula is right at the border with Finland and Norway. Quite ambitious target for the Japan, don't you think?

BUT IT WOULD WORK IN HEARTS OF IRON !!!!!!

Yo I meant Kamtschatka of course.

 

[nerd]

BUT IT WOULD WORK IN HEARTS OF IRON !!!!!!

Yo I meant Kamtschatka of course.

Just extend the Alaska Hwy all the way to the Bering Straights and build a bridge!


<Oh, right, no Trump yet, dang>

 

[keynes2.0]

Wasn't there a huge about of unobtainium in Kamtschatka back in the 30s?

 

[nuarbnellaffej]

It's not surprising that when looking up at a massive red blob to the north, and a disjointed group of underdeveloped nations/colonies to the south that the Japanese went for the low hanging fruit.

Sometimes people postulate that had the Japanese coordinated an attack with barberrosa that they could have had some success. I, however imagine trying to organize such a thing would result in too many leaks, that could tip off the Soviets, and possibly give them a major buff against the Germans compared to OTL. Not to mention that there really wasn't anything in it for the Japanese to attack the Soviets other than helping out the Germans.

Of course the Japanese could have probably Given the Soviets a real headache by shutting down the Vladivostok leans lease route.. That could probably be accomplished without a full scale shooting war(if only because the Soviets would be too busy fighting the Germans to try and punish the Japanese).

 

[Herbert West]

Do we know what the goals of the Northern Strategy were? What territory did they want to keep? Or was it the same mission creep that plagued the Southern Strategy?

 

[Graf Zeppelin]

Do we know what the goals of the Northern Strategy were? What territory did they want to keep? Or was it the same mission creep that plagued the Southern Strategy?

Wladiwostok + surroundings and the rest of Sachalin for sure but the rest is rather vague.

 

[Herbert West]

Wladiwostok + surroundings and the rest of Sachalin for sure but the rest is rather vague.

That is peanuts compared to even the most modest southern proposals.

 

[Graf Zeppelin]

That is peanuts compared to even the most modest southern proposals.

Certainly, the real price is weakening their rival.But like I said, they had other priorities at this point. They were running out of oil (and some other things) fast and neded to fix that asap.

There was also the most political valuable piece of land in whole East Asia.... Singapore.

 

[just_a_beaver]

Kola peninsula is right at the border with Finland and Norway. Quite ambitious target for the Japan, don't you think?

Not in Hoi4, it's not.

 

[olm]

Simple look at a map and where Vladivostok is located in relation to Home Islands makes it pretty clear why Japanese wanted to take over those areas.
Obviously then army was stuck in China and resources were needed quickly it was not a viable option.

 

[krieger11b]

Sometimes people postulate that had the Japanese coordinated an attack with barberrosa that they could have had some success. I, however imagine trying to organize such a thing would result in too many leaks, that could tip off the Soviets, and possibly give them a major buff against the Germans compared to OTL. Not to mention that there really wasn't anything in it for the Japanese to attack the Soviets other than helping out the Germans.

Of which you are completely right, there was a German communist that was a Soviet Spy in Japan and was the one that leaked to them that Japan had no real intention of attacking Siberia in 1941. Freed up most of the troops on that border to fight east.

 

[Jos de trol]

Of which you are completely right, there was a German communist that was a Soviet Spy in Japan and was the one that leaked to them that Japan had no real intention of attacking Siberia in 1941. Freed up most of the troops on that border to fight east.

Alaska?

 

[nuarbnellaffej]

Alaska?

Lol, not Alaska, you just have to keep going east a good 20,000+ kilometers til you about circumnavigate the globe, and bam, your at the German Soviet front.

 

[krieger11b]

Alaska?

The Soviet soldiers along the Japanese border in Manchuria. As soon as Stalin was satisfied Japan would not attack many of those troops were transferred.

 

[CruelDwarf]

The Soviet soldiers along the Japanese border in Manchuria. As soon as Stalin was satisfied Japan would not attack many of those troops were transferred.

No, they weren't transferred anywhere. There was ~700 thousands Soviet soldiers in the Far East at June 22, 1941. There was more than 1,3 million of Soviet soldiers in the Far East at December 1, 1941 (and about 1,4 million in August 1942). So who was transferred?

 

[AegonVLLI]

No, they weren't transferred anywhere. There was ~700 thousands Soviet soldiers in the Far East at June 22, 1941. There was more than 1,3 million of Soviet soldiers in the Far East at December 1, 1941 (and about 1,4 million in August 1942). So who was transferred?

A few Siberian troops who were very well equipped and motivated. Enough to give the Germans the impression that they were overrun by Siberian hordes, whereas in reallity a new wave of newly mobilised troops turned the tide.
It is a very common mistake, even among historians and experts...