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Kimbole

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Thats a shame. It certainly makes me less interested in playing it.

At the very least it would make me more cautious about it. I wouldn’t want pops to be too dominant, and it is a fine balance between insignificant (and therefore pointless) and fiddly and overly complex in my opinion. I hope they are least explore some other ways of modelling minorities and internal affairs before committing to pops.

For me, improving the trade system and creating a game more centred around estates, diets and the like are enough to justify EUV on their own. Although there is a good chance the result might be a game I like less, as I dont really have the patience for assigning trade goods, moving pops and keeping an eye on minor characters in any kind of effective way (EU IV really strikes a good balance there for me personally). But at some point it’s good to cut off the shackles of the way things are and redesign some things from the ground up I guess.
 
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Culann

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EU has so many things you need to keep track of, adding a pop system is unnecessary, plus I get the feeling the same people complaining about all the bugs are the ones who want a pop system. Seems like mutually exclusive positions, as much as I like Victoria 1&2 and Stellaris, the pop system has it share of issues. Can't wait for all the complaints in EU5 if added.

On the topic of bugs, the debt spiral bug isn't new to 1.30, it just became more apparent. Though it makes conquest easier tbh. I feel like I'm the only person who uses allies as a deterrent from being attacked rather than using them to attack someone. AI mismanaging finances has been pretty constant in this game for years now.
 
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holyvigil

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It was clearly built as an updated EU:Rome, but that wasnt enough as people have been spoilt by how good EU4 and CK2 is. The game wasnt anywhere as bad as people claim at launch and has been updated steadily for a year for free and now its actually a very good game.

The main reason I didn't like imperator at launch is because there wasn't meaningful choices. There was no sacrifice. It was always do this because it is best and you don't have anything else to do with that choice.
 
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valentin4

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The problem about starting EU5 is that they need to draw all the lessons from Imperator's fiasco, especially if Johan is to lead the development... Imperator 1.0 was so bland and unimaginative
 
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Mike1984

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EU has so many things you need to keep track of, adding a pop system is unnecessary, plus I get the feeling the same people complaining about all the bugs are the ones who want a pop system. Seems like mutually exclusive positions, as much as I like Victoria 1&2 and Stellaris, the pop system has it share of issues. Can't wait for all the complaints in EU5 if added.

A pop system of some kind is by far the best way of implementing things like a more nuanced culture and religious system, as well as a better development system. If you don't model the population of the regions in some manner, you're inevitably stuck with the sort or kludgy implementations that EU4 has, because you're trying to model a reasonably realistic system without the thing that actually drives those things in real life.
 
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Culann

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A pop system of some kind is by far the best way of implementing things like a more nuanced culture and religious system, as well as a better development system. If you don't model the population of the regions in some manner, you're inevitably stuck with the sort or kludgy implementations that EU4 has, because you're trying to model a reasonably realistic system without the thing that actually drives those things in real life.

Best way? Debatable, but not really my point. Given the amount of bugs people complain about, I'm not one of them, my point is that adding some complicated pop system doesn't reduce the bugs in the game it increases them.

Since we're on the topic of a pop system. Realistic? Yeah, a game that lets me conquer the world by 1821 isn't going for realism. So that argument doesn't appeal to me. Does it improve game play? Considering the many other games that have pops it isn't likely. It'll end up being another micromanagement system that doesn't add anything to what is currently being used in the game and pretty much every other iteration of EU since the first title. Putting jobs and managing populations where they work like Stellaris, or implementing a Victoria style system where you had production of many resources so you can change their strata seems even less fun. It works for those games because Stellaris doesn't have much else to micromanage, and in Victoria the shorter time span made it less of a chore. This of course ignores how awful the AI is currently bad at managing the many different mechanics in EUIV adding another one it will mismanage is just adding more fuel to endless posts complaining that AI doesn't do X correctly. Other games that have pop system tend to be turn base and thus those choices have more impact since typically those games have winning conditions and the options of what else they could be doing are more impactful at the time. I.E. Civ IV and later having a pop produce more hammers, culture, science, or money in a game that lasts a certain number of turns are real choices.

Lastly, given how the devs have implemented mechanics in EU series, it will either be the previously mentioned micromanagement, or yet another system in which players can achieve maximum efficiency (where the AI won't) causing more power creep, that allows for even more blobbing. I doubt highly it will give me as a player real strategic choices.

Edit: Adding to the last bit, I'm a strategy gamer, and while I wish EU was more than a map painter it isn't. No matter the limitations I put on myself, all goals revolve around either conquering an area and or colonizing. I enjoy the strategic challenges that it offers from a historical perspective but realizing that realism isn't a factor here. It is fun playing Ireland, an HRE minor, the Aztecs, Korea, etc... but I really don't see how adding a pop system enhances those things, aside from either being annoying or making it easy. In either case it would be less fun.
 
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Hussar1612

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This of course ignores how awful the AI is currently bad at managing the many different mechanics in EUIV adding another one it will mismanage is just adding more fuel to endless posts complaining that AI doesn't do X correctly.
AI is really bad in delevoping provinces so I don't see possibility to be worse with pops xD
It shouldn't be heavy Stellaris style. More like MEIOU(this gravity system) handles that so it's pretty easy for AI to handle it and for player buildings and decisions about provinces are very meaningful and strategic. With so many provinces there shouldn't be a lot of micromanaging (which EU4 development system gives)
 
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Culann

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AI is really bad in delevoping provinces so I don't see possibility to be worse with pops xD
It shouldn't be heavy Stellaris style. More like MEIOU(this gravity system) handles that so it's pretty easy for AI to handle it and for player buildings and decisions about provinces are very meaningful and strategic. With so many provinces there shouldn't be a lot of micromanaging (which EU4 development system gives)

Stellaris isn't all that heavy.

I've never played with MEIOU. That being said, if you're arguing that the AI does development bad, and turning around and trying to argue it will do a pop system better. Yeah, I'm not buying it. I'm at a loss, what could you be managing with a dev system? Outside from procing institutions or connecting high dev provinces to spread institutions faster (which is really only a few countries that need to do this) which 10 does fine I rarely dev up provinces. Monarch points are far too valuable to waste on development aside from those two instances. The whole point of why I like it is because it requires zero management.
 
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Kimbole

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Edit: Adding to the last bit, I'm a strategy gamer, and while I wish EU was more than a map painter it isn't. No matter the limitations I put on myself, all goals revolve around either conquering an area and or colonizing. I enjoy the strategic challenges that it offers from a historical perspective but realizing that realism isn't a factor here. It is fun playing Ireland, an HRE minor, the Aztecs, Korea, etc... but I really don't see how adding a pop system enhances those things, aside from either being annoying or making it easy. In either case it would be less fun.

In the best case, for me, it paints a picture of real people behind the province values and helps create a story around that conquering and colonising. But that I think needs events, graphics and mechanics, not just a different and more complex set of numbers to fiddle with or min/max.
 
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EU has so many things you need to keep track of, adding a pop system is unnecessary, plus I get the feeling the same people complaining about all the bugs are the ones who want a pop system. [...]

Now I'm curious, what makes you think that? My experience in this forum says the opposite -- generally those advocating for the pop system are the ones who complain the less about the bugs and how the game works on a mechanical level.

In the best case, for me, it paints a picture of real people behind the province values and helps create a story around that conquering and colonising. But that I think needs events, graphics and mechanics, not just a different and more complex set of numbers to fiddle with or min/max.

Abstraction =/= Immersion; Take EU 3 for example, it had numerical population that would affect how much tax, production and manpower a province gave. Not much different from dev in EU4 except that dev you have to invest resources while pop in EU3 grew without you having to do anything.

How does this help immersion? It certainly doesn't satisfy those that argue for historical representation as unless you have exactly 1 to 1 numerical representation people will still complain that so and so don't have enough -- or have too much -- pop. Alright, have a pop system like Vic II. Then you have to create a game that revolves around this one system, which hasn't ever been how EU works. Maybe use a very abstract model like CIV or I:R? Again, people will complain that it isn't a true pop system and is too acade/abstract.
 
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Now I'm curious, what makes you think that? My experience in this forum says the opposite -- generally those advocating for the pop system are the ones who complain the less about the bugs and how the game works on a mechanical level.

The OP complained about the bugs and wanted a pop system. Suppose I assumed, seeing non stop complaints over bugs (and other issues) in the forums I guess is wearing thin on me. Most of what is considered bugs doesn't really break the game, and can be planned for. In other cases like the debt spiral issue it was never really a problem to begin with. Quite the opposite actually. I've never conquered so much so quickly with smaller nations.
 
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I always assumed the length of the cycle had more to do with DDRJake's sudden exit throwing a monkey wrench into the whole process rather than the coding being difficult or man-hour expensive.
When/why did DDRJake suddenly leave?
 
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Liquid Ghost

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When/why did DDRJake suddenly leave?

October last year. A month before PDXCON. I bet the plan was to announce Emperor on PDXCON, instead the EU4 presentation was...I don't even recall exactly, something like "how EU4 has evolved through the years". No talk about the upcoming expansion that had been getting dev diaries for months at that point.

As far as I know the reason is not public, and there is only the rumor mill.
 
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Alright, have a pop system like Vic II. Then you have to create a game that revolves around this one system, which hasn't ever been how EU works. Maybe use a very abstract model like CIV or I:R? Again, people will complain that it isn't a true pop system and is too acade/abstract.

I 100% agree. I find it hard to imagine a balance between those two positions that really satisfies many. But I am not advocating for a pop system. As I say, I think that a lot of the real immersion comes from things around whatever numerical system is in place. I don’t think it’s a given that would come just because pops were introduced.
 
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Do you think CK3 will be a hollow skeleton ?

Without a shred of doubt and if you believe otherwise, well watch and learn come release when the forums will go apeshit a few days after. PDX is expecting that anyways and have their universal PR strategy already in place for such instances....”kill with silence first, drown with DLC dev diaries after”
 
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In general I think every mechanic inherited from EU3 (and EU2) should get a significant rework, and features which haven't changed since EU4 1.0 deserve a reevaluation too. EU4 has changed a lot since 2013 and EU5 could hopefully discard some baggage from those days.

Yes, and as much as the title is "Europa Universalis", I think Paradox should create the other region with at least the same depth with European countries. It gets bland quite fast.

They've worked on this to some extent but it never really pans out that well. Trying all kinds of mechanics to religion and sometimes tag is kind of ehhhh.
 
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3ishop

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In general I think every mechanic inherited from EU3 (and EU2) should get a significant rework, and features which haven't changed since EU4 1.0 deserve a reevaluation too. EU4 has changed a lot since 2013 and EU5 could hopefully discard some baggage from those days.
Would expect the biggest change should be merging of a number of mechanics in to a system. E.g. linking things such as unrest to stability.
 
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Instead of pops system, I'd rather see something simpler - representing pops as development. Development is already in game, treating a point of development as a unit that has culture and religion would be enough to give the provinces more detail while keeping it grounded.
 
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