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King of Zoot

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I know that Johan has already said they are planning new expansions for EUIV but this feels like a mistake for the following reasons:

- 1.30 had the longest development cycle yet it is riddled with bugs. The EUIV code base has clearly become too bloated to update.

- Imperator: Rome and CK3 have new good looking maps with incredible detail. EU also needs a map upgrade.

- Much needed overhauls such as switching to a pop based system and a dynamic trade route feature would allow greater nuance in gameplay. Fundamental feature overhauls like this can only come in a sequel.

- Buying all EUIV content costs hundreds of dollars or a subscription.
 
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I agree.

I also hope that the devs move far, far away from the "risk on steriods" model they used for EU4. I understand that there aren't that many players like me, but I suspect most would enjoy more in-depth internal mechanics.
 
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So we just keep throwing money at PDS? I just spent 30€ in DLC and now I must wait to play in the area the DLC was made for.

We keep feeding this infinite dev cycle? They release a game, it's empty and broken, they rework all the mechanics of the game they have just released, they throw us a DLC with the rework...

A year passes. They rework another feature, it's broken, we pay...

Sure.. Make EU5.. It will release 3 years from now, and will be playable in 5 years, and then the cycle starts again... I'm fed up with this.
 
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I do not agree and there are issues with every single point you mention:

- 1.30 had the longest development cycle yet it is riddled with bugs. The EUIV code base has clearly become too bloated to update.

That is not how programming works. At all. Bugs are in most cases not caused by bloated code. Also 1.30 is not riddled with bugs, but there are few but impactful ones. Those bugs usually just relate to a simple wrongfully coded function each and have nothing to do with the whole code. It honestly seems like every other release since the day physical releases became scarce and day one patches the norm.
If you want to look for bloated unmanageable code look for inconsistent behaviour, both in game and especially while modding, both issues that eu4 does not have.

- Imperator: Rome and CK3 have new good looking maps with incredible detail. EU also needs a

There is little that stops PDX from visually updating EU4 map to at least imperator level of quality. If you think about just the map and country borders there are multiple mods that do that already and that is within moddings limitations.
You have ro remember that there is very little difference between the engine versions of EU4 and I:R, CK3. Yes there is Jomini, but i doubt that stops PDX from interchanging code well. I mean just make the GMI mod vanilla and the game looks 3 years younger.
- Much needed overhauls such as switching to a pop based system and a dynamic trade route feature would allow greater nuance in gameplay. Fundamental feature overhauls like this can only come in a sequel.
I know i will get burned at a stake for this but i am not a fan of the pop system I:R used. But that is not the question here. The issue i have is that you present those changes as "much needed". For what i ask? The current systems work and the vast majority of requested features doesn't require dynamic trade routes or pops.
- Buying all EUIV content costs hundreds of dollars or a subscription.
I hear this argument again and again but people still don't realise how useless it is. EU4 has now been developed for 9 years. Unless you want to wait for EU5 until 2030 or want PDX to bankrupt themselves you will have to accept that EU5 will release with WAY less content than EU4 has atm. Until EU5 has covered what EU4 has so far it won't cost any less. That means that you would basically need to buy it all again for the hundreds of dollars you mentioned just for maybe pops and better trade and some graphics.

I agree.

I also hope that the devs move far, far away from the "risk on steriods" model they used for EU4. I understand that there aren't that many players like me, but I suspect most would enjoy more in-depth internal mechanics.

That would be a bad choice for EU due to its scale. There is a reason that ck only uses part of the world and that vicky only covers 100 years.
To properly represent internal mechanics across 4 centuries and the whole world would take more amount of coding and researching than all of eu4 and dlc together. It would move EU from game to simulation. The strength of EU has always been it's higher level of abstraction compared to other PDX titles, hence the bigger playerbase.

I also would like "some" more internal mechanics, but the core should stay "risk on steroids"
 
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grommile

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you will have to accept that EU5 will release with WAY less content than EU4 has atm.
EU4 was built on top of EU3.

I would fully expect EU5 to be built on top of EU4, though with major structural changes; I'd expect a lot of EU4's cruft to be purged on the basis that when you've got a remit to Change Everything That Needs Changing, you can go out and replace the menagerie of bolted-on extras with new systems that provide a more organic way of representing the things you're trying to represent.
 
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EU4 was built on top of EU3.

I would fully expect EU5 to be built on top of EU4, though with major structural changes; I'd expect a lot of EU4's cruft to be purged on the basis that when you've got a remit to Change Everything That Needs Changing, you can go out and replace the menagerie of bolted-on extras with new systems that provide a more organic way of representing the things you're trying to represent.
EU3 had half the development time EU4 had so far and they still cut content from EU3 for EU4 vanilla.

Also i feel like your 2 points contradict each other. Building on top is literally the current design philosophy with the DLC, while your second part is basically keeping the conceot but programming from scratch. There is simply no way to put a full dev teams work of 9 years out for 40-50€. Selling ~1.000.000 copies won't be profitable for PDX

Edit: unclear wording
 
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they still cut content from EU3 for EU4 vanilla.
Which particular content did they cut as a "let's have less content" move rather than a "let's replace this subsystem with one we think is better" move (EDIT) or a "this content is a load of old cobblers, let's just get rid of it as a bad job" move?
 
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Which particular content did they cut as a "let's have less content" move rather than a "let's replace this subsystem with one we think is better" move (EDIT) or a "this content is a load of old cobblers, let's just get rid of it as a bad job" move?
A simple case of something that was remoced from eu3 for vanilla eu4 and later readded were CoT.

But i have to admit, i don't have enough eu3 experience for a complete list.
 
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That would be a bad choice for EU due to its scale. There is a reason that ck only uses part of the world and that vicky only covers 100 years.

To properly represent internal mechanics across 4 centuries and the whole world would take more amount of coding and researching than all of eu4 and dlc together. It would move EU from game to simulation. The strength of EU has always been it's higher level of abstraction compared to other PDX titles, hence the bigger playerbase.

The game could very easily abstract and generalise a lot of internal mechanics, just like it already does for literally every other mechanic in the game. Making estates central to gameplay or adding in POPs would, in and of itself, create a lot of generalisable internal mechanics.

(Does EU4 usually have a bigger playerbase than CK2? The last I saw, which admittedly was a few months ago, the numbers were comparable.)
 
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The game could very easily abstract and generalise a lot of internal mechanics, just like it already does for literally every other mechanic in the game. Making estates central to gameplay or adding in POPs would, in and of itself, create a lot of generalisable inernal mechanics.
Yeah those are good ideas, but it would still be risk on steroids. I understood your approach as building EU5 as a country management simulation (which naturally includes warfare) in contrast to eu4, which was designed as a war game with management features (risk-esque)


(Does EU4 usually have a bigger playerbase than CK2? The last I saw, which admittedly was a few months ago, the numbers were comparable)
EU4 and Stellaris are the 2 big grand strategy games from PDX atm. I guess ck2 playerbase might have spiked due to going f2p, but it is still slightly below eu4 on average.
 
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grommile

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A simple case of something that was remoced from eu3 for vanilla eu4 and later readded were CoT.
EU3's CoTs were replaced with EU4's Trade Nodes.

Current EU4's CoTs are a very different concept; basically the only thing they have in common is the name.
 
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Yeah those are good ideas, but it would still be risk on steroids. I understood your approach as building EU5 as a country management simulation (which naturally includes warfare) in contrast to eu4, which was designed as a war game with management features (risk-esque)

EU4 and Stellaris are the 2 big grand strategy games from PDX atm. I guess ck2 playerbase might have spiked due to going f2p, but it is still slightly below eu4 on average.

I don't know if I'd call it 'risk on steriods' if it made estates/pops/development/etc more central to the game. For reference, I don't think the mod MEIOU (which adds a lot of internal mechanics, and will add a ton more when MEIOU 3.0 comes out) is a 'risk on steriods' type of game. Maybe you disagree, in which case this is more a discussion over definitions rather than mechanics.

To be clear: while MEIOU is an awesome mod that I think everyone who wants a more historical and realistic game should try, I don't think the devs should try and model EU5 after MEIOU. I'm not arguing that at all. I know that saying "MEIOU is more realistic than EU4" sounds like I'm complimenting the former and insulting the later, but I don't think games necessarily need to be realistic or historically-inclined, and I don't think games that are like that are always better than games that aren't.

And, as I've said in many posts, I don't think there are enough players like me to make making a game like that worthwhile. I would just appreciate more internal mechanics, that's all.
 
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EU3's CoTs were replaced with EU4's Trade Nodes.

Current EU4's CoTs are a very different concept; basically the only thing they have in common is the name.
Like i said i admit not knowing enough about eu3 to pinpoint what exactly was cut for which reason. But the core issue would even remain if nothing was cut. EU3 had a total development timeframe was about 5 years afaik. EU4 Vanilla had 3. Now EU4 has a total dev time of 9 years. Which means EU5 Vanilla would need a considerable amount of time, easily 6-7 years in Development to encompass the same content.
 
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JaxElite

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During this time period. population was the most important resource. Slightly edging out competant rulars and generals. This game needs a pop system
If during the timeframe pop was the most important resource history would have looked completely different. Europes cities were often tiny compared to some metropolises outside of it bit we still saw european culture conquer the world. The most important resources were traderoutes and laws. Hence the domination of europe and the near east, who with their expansionist abrahamic religions and their respective law codices of semitic origin achieved a way bigger stability than most other regions on earth (most importantly the strong religious connotations made divide and conquer strategies harder than in for example the americas).
Meanwhile trade brought technological progress along. Whereever merchants went they directly or indirectly spread knowledge, the whole basis of modern globalisation rests in this truth.

Population is not remotely as relevant as one might think. Tenochtitlann, Vijayanagar, Ayutthaya dwarfed european cities.
 
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