It's time to fix crossings already (PLEASE)

[Riekopo]

Since this game came out crossings in battles have been a mystery. I have completely given up on trying to figure out when my army or an enemy army will get a crossing modifier. And that's terrible because they can easily mean victory or defeat. I don't see why each province can't have an indicator like in CK2 of which provinces it's connected to have a crossing.

Not only do we need to know where the crossings occur, but the mechanic itself needs some work. As I pointed out in a previous thread there is a bug or design flaw in the mechanic. Force A is in a battle in which there is no crossing modifier. The battle is going well. Then an ally arrives to help Force A, but they cross a crossing. The battle screen then shows a -1 or -2 crossing modifier for the whole allied force. Force A ends up losing the battle because his ally arrived to help him, but brought a -1 or -2 crossing modifier with him. Logically this makes no sense and is extremely annoying. The crossing modifier should obviously only apply to the force that does the crossing otherwise they are just screwing you over.

 

[MeatPirate]

Is the crossing modifier even deterministic, or stochastic given the relative leader maneuver like terrain?

My experience is the former, but I haven't seen a Dev comment or any data to prove it.

 

[TimFisher]

I think almost every province in the game has a river or water of some kind in it so crossings are almost always in play. That being the case, a crossing penalty is just the defensive general's maneuver vs the offensive general's maneuver. So think "maneuver penalty" not "crossing". If another general comes into the battle halfway through, he takes over based on his fire/shock rating, but if his maneuver is worse then you get more crossing penalties so it's a wash.

This is just from what I've experienced. It could be some other mechanic but it results in the same thing.

 

[Azurewrath]

I don't think maneuver has anything to do with the crossing penalty.

The best way I've found to determine if I am going to get a crossing penalty is if my troops actually have to walk across a river between where they are standing and where the enemy is standing. It's not 100% accurate but it's a pretty good indicator.

 

[DukeDayve]

Some clarification would be nice, actually. I came to EUIV from CK2 and in CK2 always pause the game and plot my armies' route based on which provinces have water crossings with the province I want to get them to, so I knew the important of water crossings. I spent so long in EUIV searching every inch of the province info panel, checking every single tab, to find which provinces had crossings and which provinces would therefore give me water penalties/bonuses. When I realized I couldn't find any I was paranoid for so long about whether I was attacking with a penalty.

Now I just don't pay attention, unless it's an obvious crossing like a strait.

 

[MathewPerth]

Now I just don't pay attention, unless it's an obvious crossing like a strait.

Sitting in constantinople is quite fun since if they attack you its basically suicide

 

[brifbates]

I don't think maneuver has anything to do with the crossing penalty.

The best way I've found to determine if I am going to get a crossing penalty is if my troops actually have to walk across a river between where they are standing and where the enemy is standing. It's not 100% accurate but it's a pretty good indicator.

Nope, if there is water in the area you can pretty much count on a crossing penalty even when your path doesn't intersect it. That's how I mentally plan it out anyway so when I luck out and don't have the penalty it's a bonus.

 

[Attelwyn]

I've attacked another province without getting crossing modifier, and then reinforced the battle from the same province and had the crossing modifier pop up.
The only thing I could think of that would produce this randomness was Leader Maneuver.

 

[Phibs]

This must be the umpteenth thread on the topic.

How we still don't know this is flabbergasting. Flabbergasting I say!

 

[AurochsAway]

I've attacked another province without getting crossing modifier, and then reinforced the battle from the same province and had the crossing modifier pop up.
The only thing I could think of that would produce this randomness was Leader Maneuver.

When the forum figured out that leader maneouver affected terrain, a dev assured us that it didn't affect river crossings or landing from ocean penalties.

 

[JStrayer]

While I 100% agree with OP I just ignore the term "river crossing" and in my own mind nearly a 1000 hrs in pretend there's instead an offensive malus for all attacking engagements. That isn't to say it's okay with me that there is no indicator.

 

[nouli]

I've attacked another province without getting crossing modifier, and then reinforced the battle from the same province and had the crossing modifier pop up.
The only thing I could think of that would produce this randomness was Leader Maneuver.

Do you remember these provinces names?

 

[Conch]

Crossings are not modified by leader maneuver.
The one thing determining crossing is the way the attacker takes. If the movement arrow crosses a river, there is a crossing. If it doesnt, there is no crossing.
If reinforcing attackers cross a river, the crossing modifier is automatically applied.

That is it. Nothing more to say on crossings.

 

[londoner247]

Crossings are not modified by leader maneuver.
The one thing determining crossing is the way the attacker takes. If the movement arrow crosses a river, there is a crossing. If it doesnt, there is no crossing.
If reinforcing attackers cross a river, the crossing modifier is automatically applied.

That is it. Nothing more to say on crossings.

What is your basis for being so firm in that conclusion?

It seems to me to be quite logical that if leader manoeuvre allows the superior general to choose the terrain that he fights on then that would also allow him to position himself such that a river is between him and his enemy in cases where he is taking up a defensive position.

I agree that a fight in North African deserts shouldn't have a river crossing because there are no rivers nearby but I see no reason why a fight near Paris or London couldn't take the crossings of the Seine or Thames into account if the defending leader positions himself well.

 

[nouli]

Crossings are not modified by leader maneuver.
The one thing determining crossing is the way the attacker takes. If the movement arrow crosses a river, there is a crossing. If it doesnt, there is no crossing.
If reinforcing attackers cross a river, the crossing modifier is automatically applied.

That is it. Nothing more to say on crossings.

Counter example in Scandinavia
Try to move from 19 to the one to upper-right (1755 if I'm not mistaken), arrow crosses river, but you don't get crossing penalty.
Also it's not simply related to one of province positions (army, etc), tested that by playing with positions.txt. At the moment the only sure thing we can say is: if there's a river in start or end province, you may get crossing.
Personally I assume it's somehow related to distance of river from border, but who knows.

 

[nouli]

What is your basis for being so firm in that conclusion?

It seems to me to be quite logical that if leader manoeuvre allows the superior general to choose the terrain that he fights on then that would also allow him to position himself such that a river is between him and his enemy in cases where he is taking up a defensive position.

Because we don't have any proof of that. As far as my testings go, I've never been able to remove crossing by giving myself high manuever leader. If you can give us reproducible counter-example, that would be completly different matter.

 

[Aries666]

I assume that if there is water in the province of origin or destination I will get a crossing penalty. I have seen plenty of instances were my movement arrow didnt go over a river but there was one in the province and still received a penalty. Which leads me to conclude that something else must affect the chance of a crossing the most likely being leader manuever despite being told this does not effect it. Of course this is entirely anecdotal so I cant say anything for sure.

 

[brifbates]

Crossings are not modified by leader maneuver.
The one thing determining crossing is the way the attacker takes. If the movement arrow crosses a river, there is a crossing. If it doesnt, there is no crossing.
If reinforcing attackers cross a river, the crossing modifier is automatically applied.

That is it. Nothing more to say on crossings.

Except for the part where this statement is 100% wrong. I can't count how many times my movement path has not crossed any water visible on the map but I've gotten a crossing penalty in the ensuing combats. As I said previously, if there's water in the area I just plan based on getting the penalty because it is the most likely outcome no matter how clear my route looks.

 

[Thrake]

I consider crossing penalty as the fact that the defender will always have an easier time rather than the attacker always crossing rivers. Always expect it when attacking (ie: don't attack if armies are of equal strenght or you'll give an edge to the AI); if you're stronger, it's just about a few more casualties, and the price to pay for quick victory.

That being said, each of those threads concludes by the fact that no one knows for sure.

 

[Phibs]

That being said, each of those threads concludes by the fact that no one knows for sure.

Indeed.

The main hope of these threads is to attract the attention of a dev who'll step in and finally solve the mystery.

To this end I propose we start such a thread every fifteen minutes (don't! )