It's Time to Call Out the American colonial debacle in EU4

[moscal]

You do realize that "Rapid Collapse of Society" is a thing... right?

And do you know, that this haven't real influence on game? New World Nation can have feudalism very fast, after 1 contact with colonists so neutralization of this modifier is only... empty form

 

[EnvyDemon]

I can only hope EU5 will be more sensible and not make those tribes playable.

Or... not expect to roll over native american tribes.

 

[EnvyDemon]

And do you know, that this haven't real influence on game? New World Nation can have feudalism very fast, after 1 contact with colonists so neutralization of this modifier is only... empty form

The collapse of the Aztecs and the Inca occured very quickly after first contact. Not the devs fault that you don't press the advantage like the Europeans did historically.

If you gave the Aztecs 10 years, I'd be willing to wager they'd be able to hold off a European Army, especially in the case that Montezuma wasn't assassinated.

 

[DanubianCossak]

Paradox Developers/Leaders and game players,
It's time we had a more open and brutally honest feedback discussion regarding the current look of the Americas for colonization.

For 3x straight games, in Normal/Ironman mode -- I have observed the pace of tech, military development, and provincial expansion in the Americas, especially the area tagged as the "Colonial Eastern America" region.

The game is currently designed to be completely unrealistic and anti-colonial, and there's no other way to say it.

Dev's - you're ruining the game in terms of colonial game play.

I'm looking up and down the Eastern Seaboard of North America (in mid- to late-1500s), and 100% of all native tribes are rolling around with Cavalry units (at about 20-30% of total army) and Artillery regiments (at about 10-20% of total army). This is pure fantasy, to think that every single North American tribe that historically wielded hatchets, spears, and wooden short bows -- that these tribes have all gathered tech and are industrially smelting ore to fire up the iron works and craft cannons. As for location - the tribes are politically entrenched as holders of provinces in all but 2 total provinces along the coastline, that could be colonized. So this means, that if an "average nation" in Europe is trying to send a Colonist to Colonial Eastern America, they have just 2 provinces to choose from in that entire colonial region, and what instead is required is that a war must break out, a major war between European powers and Natives with Cavalry and Artillery, to clear the North American coastline for European settlement (how unhistorical is that??).

Who allowed the Game Design and native expansion/tech to get to this point? Paradox, you're totally failing to represent the Colonial period of the 16th-17th Centuries, in any meaningful way.

All of this is because there appears to be some kind of psychological issue with humans not wanting to play games where they essentially have to play with big penalties.

If natives were set to be "realistic" either nobody would play them (which defeats the purpose of content DLCs covering those areas) or everyone would constantly whine about how they are underpowered.

So what Paradox does is the simplest thing according to marketing logic: they release a DLC that covers something like Americas, they develop unrealsitic and overpowered features in that place in order to appease players who want to play EU4 as some backward Johan-forsaken place in the world, and so you end up with a broken mess thats completely immersion breaking and unable to reproduce anything even remotely like real life results.

This is precisely why they got rid of old technology group research rates, and replaced it with a system where you could pretty much "mint" your way into institutions as they spawned, so even the most backwater places could easily become the most technologically advanced in the world even with smallest of investments.

Unfortunately all of this is a part of Paradox's tendency to move away from the core player base that loved their history inspired games for what they were, and more toward casual normie players who want to "meme" their playthroughs on twitch.

 

[moscal]

The collapse of the Aztecs and the Inca occured very quickly after first contact. Not the devs fault that you don't press the advantage like the Europeans did historically.

Not me. As New World Nation I can avoid thi modifier faster than AI...

In such arguments main problem is in fact, that human player isn't alone force creating world. X>99% players in EU4 are AI and fact, that way to avoid is simple even for stupid AI, and other stupid AI don't know how make good overseas invasion, mean that problems are in game. Not in gamer.

And ofc - we can say that EU4 havent problems. EU4 is great game and every problem is only players. EU4 haven't wrong designe, bugs in codes, outdated and incompatible mechanics, no logic, dead chains of events, dead disasters etc. Only players are stupid and cannot feel genius of game...

But this way isn't any solution. Native megalopolis with 200+ dev still will be megalopolis with 200+ dev but with feudalism institution...

 

[moscal]

If natives were set to be "realistic" either nobody would play them (which defeats the purpose of content DLCs covering those areas) or everyone would constantly whine about how they are underpowered.

Nope. After Conquest of Paradise natives have get new mechanism and in community hadn't dissatisfaction because "natives are too OP". Problem with lack of evolution and rapid effects from buttons, and general "cult of manaism" had (and still have place) from first versions of EU4. But now with strange rework of native mechanism post-leviathan-patch situation in New World is abomination. And this isn't dissatisfaction of old-school players - this is wrong designe problem.

 

[DanubianCossak]

this is wrong designe problem.

For me personally game has had wrong design priorities since the Russian expansion (whatever that was called). Its just a bunch of feature bloat and power up buttons that you press every 30 years. They havent done a single substantial thing that i can think of for like last 3 years. Trade, production, warfare. All of those systems have needed an upgrade for like 5+ years now.

 

[Naughtyfication_Centre]

The collapse of the Aztecs and the Inca occured very quickly after first contact. Not the devs fault that you don't press the advantage like the Europeans did historically.

If you gave the Aztecs 10 years, I'd be willing to wager they'd be able to hold off a European Army, especially in the case that Montezuma wasn't assassinated.

Wasn’t the ideological/religious foundation of mesoamerican civilisations the belief in a cycle of life and death, rise and fall, the self-consuming snake?

The Aztecs, the Mayas, the Incas et cetera collapsed in a way plague-ridden former Roman cities collapsed, bringing birth to new forms of governance and a new mixture of populace. When travelling through Latin America and USA/Canada you undoubtedly spot a different course of history, literally written in the faces of the people. Here and there you might meet a Native American whose claim to heritage isn’t just backed by him sharing 1,x % DNA with the Cherokee, the Mohawk or other tribes. But in general you will come to the conclusion that in North America either 1. the natives were genocided or 2. there weren’t many to begin with because the whole peninsula was not as densely populated as Mesoamerica.

You won’t come to this conclusion while travelling through Mexico, Guatemala and so on where you find a broad mix of the genetical makeup as well as cultural traditions and beliefs and even cuisine of the former native populace as well as of European and African newcomers.

In fact, sharing food is the beginning of every intercultural exchange, right after learning the most important swearwords. And while you (here in Europe!) hardly would find a store or restaurant not offering chia seeds, amaranth, beans, pumpkins, corn, and not to mention several potent herbal hallucinogens and other psychotropics that can be obtained as legal highs, the only thing that comes to my mind when thinking of Native American tribes is a hut and feathers of an eagle. Why?

 

[The Norman Yoke]

Paradox Developers/Leaders and game players,
It's time we had a more open and brutally honest feedback discussion regarding the current look of the Americas for colonization.

For 3x straight games, in Normal/Ironman mode -- I have observed the pace of tech, military development, and provincial expansion in the Americas, especially the area tagged as the "Colonial Eastern America" region.

The game is currently designed to be completely unrealistic and anti-colonial, and there's no other way to say it.

Dev's - you're ruining the game in terms of colonial game play.

I'm looking up and down the Eastern Seaboard of North America (in mid- to late-1500s), and 100% of all native tribes are rolling around with Cavalry units (at about 20-30% of total army) and Artillery regiments (at about 10-20% of total army). This is pure fantasy, to think that every single North American tribe that historically wielded hatchets, spears, and wooden short bows -- that these tribes have all gathered tech and are industrially smelting ore to fire up the iron works and craft cannons. As for location - the tribes are politically entrenched as holders of provinces in all but 2 total provinces along the coastline, that could be colonized. So this means, that if an "average nation" in Europe is trying to send a Colonist to Colonial Eastern America, they have just 2 provinces to choose from in that entire colonial region, and what instead is required is that a war must break out, a major war between European powers and Natives with Cavalry and Artillery, to clear the North American coastline for European settlement (how unhistorical is that??).

Who allowed the Game Design and native expansion/tech to get to this point? Paradox, you're totally failing to represent the Colonial period of the 16th-17th Centuries, in any meaningful way.

You do get an adoption of firearms and cannons by native forces but this is far later than how the game has it.

Hopefully the devs have handicapped native gov reform growth suitably so that they still have federation mechanics in the 17th century.

Australia and polynesia are I think the worst addition leviathan made

 

[moscal]

doesn't mean we should add more unhistorical stuff.

Like a...

 

[Naughtyfication_Centre]

PDX might want to consider adding the Antarctic or the Moon and Mars as places where players are allowed to do the colonisation game instead of fabricate claim + declare war + DOW + peace out + repeat.

 

[Radu]

I don't think this has anything to do with racism. Just that stone age tribes modernize too quickly, which is historically very improbable and before you say ''well there's lots of unhistorical things in this game'' just remember that that doesn't mean we should add more unhistorical stuff.

Yes but of all the possible topics, that it's the "where's my easy genocide against those redskins, dawg?" hill that people choose to die on ... it's very conspicuous.

 

[The Norman Yoke]

This entire thread is one big racist rant.

"Hurr durr, I want to subjugate those filthy primitives and Paradox now tells me they're actual human beings all along. Preposterous! What's next? Phrenology being a sham?!"

Technological inferiority =/= racial inferiority

 

[The Norman Yoke]

PDX might want to consider adding the Antarctic or the Moon and Mars as places where players are allowed to do the colonisation game instead of fabricate claim + declare war + DOW + peace out + repeat.

Cecil rhodes is sadly just out of timeframe

 

[moscal]

Yes but of all the possible topics, that it's the "where's my easy genocide against those redskins, dawg?" hill that people choose to die on ... it's very conspicuous.

So viruses, miasms and microbes are racists - they had lead higher death rate on First Nations than on Europeans...

Send complaints to "Mother Nature"

 

[The Tsar]

Yes but of all the possible topics, that it's the "where's my easy genocide against those redskins, dawg?" hill that people choose to die on ... it's very conspicuous.

The forum is full of other threads mate. You're imagining people only complain about natives.

 

[The Norman Yoke]

It’s funny how the same game mechanics are viewed so differently between players. When I see a bunch of natives congregating on the east coast, I plop down a colony and send over a military stack. I take all their land when my army slices through theirs like butter.

The ai wont do that, which makes the game even easier for the player to overcome his enemies

 

[The Norman Yoke]

So colonies didn’t conquer? Do you want the area free of tribes so you can snatch up the provinces without much hassle? I mean, the game has given colonization such an advantage when compared to what happened historically. Yes, it is not historically accurate to have natives running around with horses and cannons, but once the game starts, you are making your own history.

Native americans in the US didnt have the same concepts of land ownership as in the west, they were also migratory, as such all of their tribal land being settled when they reform prevents Europeans gaining the initial footholds they often had. The end result was conquest but the initial stage should be semi passive, without it being completely a top down state enterprise with state armies conquering and state administrators establishing rule and statevdiplomats sent to establish peace

 

[currylambchop]

What about removing long houses so natives have a really small force limit?

 

[The Norman Yoke]

What about removing long houses so natives have a really small force limit?

That or reducing it down to +4 or +5