• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Pbhuh

Colonel
81 Badges
Sep 12, 2017
1.039
2.102
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Magicka 2 - Signup Campaign
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Magicka 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Magicka 2: Ice, Death and Fury
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Surviving Mars
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Victoria 2
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
For eons people in the community have requested Belgium. But many years into the game, Belgium is still missing. It's become a joke rather, people ask for belgium, people get made fun of, cause Belgium isnt real or some other discriminatory statements. We are seeing minor states like Vermont being added, which is great. So I just ask. Let's add Belgium too. It makes perfect sense now that the Industrialization institution is being added as Belgium was the first continental european country to adopt trains.

Belgium first arose as a name from the Belgica tribe and region in the Roman Empire. Later on in Latin this name would be retained to refer to some or all of the lowlands together with Frisia. And the name would be incorporated into the Dutch Republic as Belgica Foederata.

But things changed. The Southern Netherlands started to differentiate from the north and would no longer be considered the same as the Northern Netherlands. And they fittingly choose Belgium as their name, which can be seen in the first occurance of a Belgian state.

People like to say, Belgium didnt exist in EU4 timeframe. And you would be wrong. Because there was a state that existed that was named Belgium.

Cue in: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Belgian_States

The United Belgian States. A somewhat Enlightenment/Revolutionary era state that rebelled against the Austrian Netherlands. It formed in 1790 and lasted for a year, but it created the beginning of what would become the identity of Belgium.

As many know, the Austrians wouldnt hold onto the Southern Netherlands for long after as in 1795 they were captured by the French Republic.

Fastfoward to 1815 and in the Congress of Vienna, the Netherlands became a Kingdom under the House of Orange-Nassau and was granted the Southern Netherlands. However, many opposed the new authoritarian regime that King William set up and this would lead to attempts to introduce a constitution and others concessions from the Monarchy. However, this came too late as the Southern Netherlands rose up against the Northern Netherlands in 1830 and would be recognized as such in 1839.

So now the question is, how should it be represented ingame?

First off the Flag. There are only two options here and the colour of the country can be either Red or Yellow.

1024px-Flag_of_Belgium.svg.png Flag_of_the_Brabantine_Revolution.svg.png

There are a variety of options here, but perhaps it should become a revolter tag that can revolt after 1700's. And of course Belgium would exist in the 1790 date.

I think the revolter tag should be the default way of seeing the tag,

But what if?

What if we made Belgium a Formable?

There are a lot of arguments against making Belgium a formable. Because the Dutch-Speaking areas should be incentivized to form the Netherlands. However, and I think this is what would make a lot of sense.

If the Netherlands forms and Flanders, Brabant, Hainaut are still existing. There should be a chance of them not to join the Republic and when they don't, they should have the ability to form Belgium instead. So the Belgium Formable should only be available if the Netherlands exists. Other options could be to simply allow it always, its a flavour thing. If people wanna form it, why should we not allow the formation?

Belgian Ideas


Belgian ideas should be focussed on cultural union of Walloon and Flemish, humanism and a constitution, the defense of their lands, (by inundating their polders and the ardennes) and most importantly, Production and Industrialization.

These are my suggestions:

Traditions:
-1 National Unrest
+10% Production Efficiency

Belgian Constitution:
-10% Stability Cost Modifier

Industrial Innovation:
+10% Institution Spread

Land of Two Languages:
-25% Promote Culture Cost
+1 Promoted Culture

Barriers for Enemeis:
+1 Attrition for Enemies

Guaranteed Neutrality:
+1 Diplomatic Reputation
+1 Diplomatic Relations

Technological Innovation:
-10% Technology Cost

Ardennes Coal:
+10% Goods Produced Modifier

Ambition:

-10% Construction Cost
+5% Production Efficiency
 
  • 18
  • 17Like
  • 9
  • 3
Reactions:
I believe the Devs have specifically stated that Vermont is added due to a lack of new world formables. Their is no such lack in Europe.

I find it hard to justify the addition as it is so late in the game. The common argument. Also the Flemish were the only people in the region that had a real sense of independence. Interestingly during the Dutch revolt some cities joined the revolt early on in the union of Utrecht. These were mostly the Northern and western part of modern day Belgium. This was partially due to geography but also due to a sense of cultural brotherhood.

If people wanna form it, why should we not allow the formation?

I think this explains your position. I disagree with this as I also disagree with the decision to add Vermont. It should be a well thought out decision and not interfere with current gameplay.

That being said I too do dislike the memeing around the subject of Belgium. And would be a definite proponent of the addition of Belgium when it can be better justified in my opinion.
 
  • 2
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:
I believe the Devs have specifically stated that Vermont is added due to a lack of new world formables. Their is no such lack in Europe.

I find it hard to justify the addition as it is so late in the game. The common argument. Also the Flemish were the only people in the region that had a real sense of independence. Interestingly during the Dutch revolt some cities joined the revolt early on in the union of Utrecht. These were mostly the Northern and western part of modern day Belgium. This was partially due to geography but also due to a sense of cultural brotherhood.



I think this explains your position. I disagree with this as I also disagree with the decision to add Vermont. It should be a well thought out decision and not interfere with current gameplay.

That being said I too do dislike the memeing around the subject of Belgium. And would be a definite proponent of the addition of Belgium when it can be better justified in my opinion.

The flemish and walloon people jointly revolted against the Austrian Netherlands in 1790, I think this justifies that these people saw themselves as one group, who wanted to form a state, a catholic state. This is why the Netherlands is not sufficient to represent these people as they started to diverge and which also led to them rising up against the Dutch.

1790 is simply the moment they succeeded in history, ableit for just a year.

Its a country with flavour and especially now that Industrialization becomes an institution it only makes sense to add in Belgium.
 
  • 7Like
  • 1
Reactions:
however I like the easteregg that revolutionary burgundy has the belgian flag
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
If Two Sicilies can become a formable, I feel Belgium can be too.
 
  • 11Like
  • 2
Reactions:
Yesterday we learned that Lotharingia will become a tag it seems.

So the standard for formable tags seem to be dropping.

Lotharingia wont have existed for like 500 years ingame.

This seems similar to the Germany and Italy formable. Two formables that represent a more modern version of the tag, but are somehow justified by being titular titles of the HRE.

I think with the low standard of adding tags it seems weird Belgium cant be added.

As we are talking alt-history anyway. Im disappointed so many people still disagree.

I am dutch myself and i often hear from them that they think belgium belongs to us. Maybe that's why so many people disagree.
 
  • 2Like
  • 2
Reactions:
Yesterday we learned that Lotharingia will become a tag it seems.

So the standard for formable tags seem to be dropping.

Lotharingia wont have existed for like 500 years ingame.

This seems similar to the Germany and Italy formable. Two formables that represent a more modern version of the tag, but are somehow justified by being titular titles of the HRE.

I think with the low standard of adding tags it seems weird Belgium cant be added.

As we are talking alt-history anyway. Im disappointed so many people still disagree.

I am dutch myself and i often hear from them that they think belgium belongs to us. Maybe that's why so many people disagree.

From what I've read, the argument for Lotharingia has been that Charles the Bold's aim was to recreate Lotharingia and that falls into the timeline. I don't particularly like the name myself either though...
 
  • 3
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:
Although I sound slightly like a broken record: in the EU4 timeframe, "Belgium" was an alternate name for the Netherlands as a whole. "Belgica foederata" was the official Latin name of the United Provinces. It makes no sense to have a "Belgium" in EU4, because there is already one. The Netherlands.
 
  • 3Like
  • 3
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:
I am against adding Belgium as a formable unless some very strict conditions are met (having been under a different country than the northern netherlands for at least 100 years or something like that) as I just don't see how a Belgian state would come to exist otherwise. The main cause of the creation of the United Belgian states appears to be (according to wikipedia) opposition to reforms led by the church and even the Belgian Revolution didn't have nationalism as a main cause (as nationalism wasn't really a thing yet).
 
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions:
And if a "Belgium" tag was introduced based on the United Belgian States, giving it national ideas based on humanism or the enlightenment hardly seems justified. While there was a faction in the revolt that indeed advocated liberal reform and popular sovereignity, that faction, the Vonckist, was very much minoritarian. The main reason for the revolt in the Austrian Netherlands was resistance against Emperor Joseph's reforms in the vein of enlightened absolutism, and particularly his Edict of Tolerance and other religious measures geared towards curtailing the privileges and influence of the Catholic church. The main faction of the so-called revolutionaries were the "Statists", reactionaries that wanted to maintain religious (=catholic) and aristocratic privileges and which mobilized mobs of crucifix-carrying peasants that wanted to lynch liberals. The Statists soon began a violent persecution of the Vonckists and other liberals.
Among the remaining Vonckists, some came to an understanding with the Austrians. Others chose an exile in Revolutionary France and in 1792 formed the "Committee of United Belgians and Liégeois" which lobbied for a French invasion of the Austrian Netherlands. "United Belgians" is again a little misleading in English. The original Dutch text of their proclamation - "Vertoonung aan de Nederlandsche en Luyksche Volkeren" - is another proof that Belgium/Belgian was still very much synonymous with Netherlands/Dutch in the 1790s.
Long story short:
1. Belgium was just another name for the Netherlands even in the 1790s
2. A country based on the United Belgian States should have national ideas based on the reactionary attitude and religious conservativism of the faction that dominated the revolution.
 
  • 4
  • 2
  • 1Like
  • 1
Reactions:
Although I sound slightly like a broken record: in the EU4 timeframe, "Belgium" was an alternate name for the Netherlands as a whole. "Belgica foederata" was the official Latin name of the United Provinces. It makes no sense to have a "Belgium" in EU4, because there is already one. The Netherlands.

The issue with this is that you are correct, but Belgica was merely a geographical name for the entire Lowlands.

Belgium adopted it because the Netherlands became more defined as the Northern Netherlands vs the Southern Netherlands.

Belgium is a proper name for a new tag as it indeed did exist in EU4's timeframe, and not much later afterwards until now.

There are other formables and states that make less sense in a historical perspective, but are still justified.

Aka, things change and Flavour/Alt-History is a justified reason for adding it. Look at formables like Italy and Germany.

Sure those things existed before, but thats not what the formable or tag represents.


As you can see, the tag is written with the capital of Roma. Even though the Medieval Kingdom had its capital more often in Pavia.

Similarly this can be seen with Germany. With Berlin being its capital, which was pretty much a backwater in medieval times.



So, yes you are correct that it's not fitting in early EU4. But in later Eu4 these things are merely a little early. Being able to form this tag at perhaps Adm Tech 20, just like Germany is fair.

Your argument relies on that it doesnt fully fit, but EU4 has already set the precedent that this can be ignored in favour of flavour, so can we end this debate about if it is justified.

And if a "Belgium" tag was introduced based on the United Belgian States, giving it national ideas based on humanism or the enlightenment hardly seems justified. While there was a faction in the revolt that indeed advocated liberal reform and popular sovereignity, that faction, the Vonckist, was very much minoritarian. The main reason for the revolt in the Austrian Netherlands was resistance against Emperor Joseph's reforms in the vein of enlightened absolutism, and particularly his Edict of Tolerance and other religious measures geared towards curtailing the privileges and influence of the Catholic church. The main faction of the so-called revolutionaries were the "Statists", reactionaries that wanted to maintain religious (=catholic) and aristocratic privileges and which mobilized mobs of crucifix-carrying peasants that wanted to lynch liberals. The Statists soon began a violent persecution of the Vonckists and other liberals.
Among the remaining Vonckists, some came to an understanding with the Austrians. Others chose an exile in Revolutionary France and in 1792 formed the "Committee of United Belgians and Liégeois" which lobbied for a French invasion of the Austrian Netherlands. "United Belgians" is again a little misleading in English. The original Dutch text of their proclamation - "Vertoonung aan de Nederlandsche en Luyksche Volkeren" - is another proof that Belgium/Belgian was still very much synonymous with Netherlands/Dutch in the 1790s.
Long story short:
1. Belgium was just another name for the Netherlands even in the 1790s
2. A country based on the United Belgian States should have national ideas based on the reactionary attitude and religious conservativism of the faction that dominated the revolution.

Flavour is the excuse here, plus I made these ideas not as THIS HAS TO BE IT, they can be adjusted, but many nations have ideas that simply give the tag flavour, as its known as in popular culture.
 
  • 4Like
  • 2
Reactions:
What Belgium is in popular sense is more "The United Belgian states" together with the Prinsbischopric/Republic of Liege without Luxembourg. Also the so called Luyksche volkeren/ Liégeois are seperated from the Dutch in title of the book "Vertoonung aan de Nederlandsche en Luyksche Volkeren". If I am not mistaken there was for hundred of years a cultural border between west francia which became France and east francia which became the Holy Roman Empire. An idea for UNITED and independent Southern low countries did not appear until 1830 I believe. The United Belgian states represent a more of an independent united state of Flanders, Brabant, Hainaut, Namur, Luxembourg under one flag. Calling the "United Belgian states" by tag name Belgium sounds wrong.
 
I believe that at this point Belgium is redundant.

Lotharingia (and Burgundy) pretty much cover Belgium as a "Greater Belgium" while the case of historical Belgium is quite outside EU4 timeframe (and covered by client state mechanics). The case of Southern Provinces seceding was a doing of Great Powers and arrangement of post-napoleon period. Perhaps event could be arranged for Belgium to spawn, but given that it happens way after Dutch Revolt the game is unpredictable at that moment.

The most important issue is that, technically, you should have an ability to make alternative formable against Netherlands. Making an option to form Burgundy for local states... should be enough. I don't remember if you could reform Burgundy though, but if you don't it could be useful.
 
  • 4
  • 2Like
  • 2
Reactions:
I believe that at this point Belgium is redundant.

Lotharingia (and Burgundy) pretty much cover Belgium as a "Greater Belgium" while the case of historical Belgium is quite outside EU4 timeframe (and covered by client state mechanics). The case of Southern Provinces seceding was a doing of Great Powers and arrangement of post-napoleon period. Perhaps event could be arranged for Belgium to spawn, but given that it happens way after Dutch Revolt the game is unpredictable at that moment.

The most important issue is that, technically, you should have an ability to make alternative formable against Netherlands. Making an option to form Burgundy for local states... should be enough. I don't remember if you could reform Burgundy though, but if you don't it could be useful.

Its all the same lame excuses.

Formables and Tags exist in EU4 for a variety of reasons. Many of them don't make sense. Yet they are there, for a simple reason. They would exist later on.

The great powers didnt form Belgium. They merely allowed it to exist.

The Catholic South revolted against an autocratic king in the North. France helped them out, Britain guaranteed it and the rest is history.

Allowing a nation like Hainaut to form a different country than reform France is a pretty good idea.

But I feel it should be Belgium.

We have a lot of 19th century tags in eu4. Why should Belgium be excluded?

Burgundy is a very different term and while they got to rule over the area of Lotharingia, it still doesn't make Burgundy Belgium.

Burgundy only 100 before startdate would be the Kingdom of Burgundy or Arles, the County of Burgundy and the French Duchy.
 
Last edited:
  • 4Like
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions:
We have a lot of 19th century tags in eu4. Why should Belgium be excluded?

Simply because most of reasons that propel Belgium into existence don't manifest usually...
  • No Catholic vs Protestant divide
  • No Netherlands until much later
  • Belgium without Netherlands makes no sense, Hainaut would just prefer to form Netherlands on their own terms or go Burgundy path
  • No separate culture
  • Flanders and Walloon parts of country are rather distinctive, probably too different for usual formable.
  • No precedent for it
I do not say that it mustn't be added. But if it is added, there should be a plausible time and place for such tag.

As for most 19 century tags... they existed as precedents of sorts (former kingdoms for example) or are formables of big cultures - Germany and Italy for example. New World kinda breaks this rule, but it is believable that the tags there would manifest were they to acquire independence.

So, question is, what is time and place for Belgian formable to appear? As stated above, Belgium has complicated circumstances to appear and in EU4 era Burgundy has more to do with it than possible formable.
 
  • 3
Reactions:
Simply because most of reasons that propel Belgium into existence don't manifest usually...
  • No Catholic vs Protestant divide
  • No Netherlands until much later
  • Belgium without Netherlands makes no sense, Hainaut would just prefer to form Netherlands on their own terms or go Burgundy path
  • No separate culture
  • Flanders and Walloon parts of country are rather distinctive, probably too different for usual formable.
  • No precedent for it
I do not say that it mustn't be added. But if it is added, there should be a plausible time and place for such tag.

As for most 19 century tags... they existed as precedents of sorts (former kingdoms for example) or are formables of big cultures - Germany and Italy for example. New World kinda breaks this rule, but it is believable that the tags there would manifest were they to acquire independence.

So, question is, what is time and place for Belgian formable to appear? As stated above, Belgium has complicated circumstances to appear and in EU4 era Burgundy has more to do with it than possible formable.

  • No Catholic vs Protestant divide
This is more a matter of the reformation not working like it did historically.
  • No Netherlands until much later
In all my games netherlands uusally forms around 17th century.
  • No separate culture
There is flemish and walloon, not sure what you are on about.
  • Flanders and Walloon parts of country are rather distinctive, probably too different for usual formable.
So are other tags, sure its a different divide, but when Belgium formed there was no question of unity. This arose later.
  • No precedent for it
Precedent is a matter of what you consider yourself.

I think its a double standard adding in formables and tags like Germany that obviously refer to the Prussian formed German Empire, while dismissing the same case for Belgium.

Is the Belgae tribe justification for a belgian formable? Considering that the Dutch started seeing themselves as the Batavii.

Lastly, like i said previously. Burgundy =/= Lowlands

Burgundy came into thr possession of the lowlands, but in cases like Brabant, Holland, Hainaut and Luxemburg for less than 100 years.
 
  • 3Like
  • 2
  • 2
Reactions:
Precedent is a matter of what you consider yourself.

I think its a double standard adding in formables and tags like Germany that obviously refer to the Prussian formed German Empire, while dismissing the same case for Belgium.

Is the Belgae tribe justification for a belgian formable? Considering that the Dutch started seeing themselves as the Batavii.

Issue is, you would normally want to form Netherlands first anyway.

What if there was an event chain that could trigger that leads to civil war and formation of Belgium due to political divides that happen between Belgian and Dutch parts? Wouldn't that work much better?
 
  • 2Like
  • 1
Reactions:
Issue is, you would normally want to form Netherlands first anyway.

What if there was an event chain that could trigger that leads to civil war and formation of Belgium due to political divides that happen between Belgian and Dutch parts? Wouldn't that work much better?

I would argue that that would also not work as I'm pretty sure the flemish provinces were closer to Holland than to the wallonian provinces
 
I would argue that that would also not work as I'm pretty sure the flemish provinces were closer to Holland than to the wallonian provinces

You could make it a Disaster as a part of "Reclaim Lowlands" mission instead, being a test for political unity of the Republic.

After all, main reasons were political. Have some issues (faith difference, some lands were in HRE, foreign claims, being occupied, bankruptcy, etc) as triggers, with possible Disaster not firing at all.

I am not acquaintanced enough with Dutch history to make deeper suggestion, but I think such framework is suitable.
 
  • 2
Reactions:
Issue is, you would normally want to form Netherlands first anyway.

What if there was an event chain that could trigger that leads to civil war and formation of Belgium due to political divides that happen between Belgian and Dutch parts? Wouldn't that work much better?

Well, i would simply say, let the player choose. Its fine having two formables and the AI if its before 1700s being 99% chance of forming Netherlands and if its after maybe 99% chance of forming Belgium.

I think restrictions like, netherlands should exist are interesting, but in the end we should primarily focus on player choice. What would a player want?

I would argue that that would also not work as I'm pretty sure the flemish provinces were closer to Holland than to the wallonian provinces

Yes, this divide historically happened because the protestants fled brabant and flanders and the subsequent changes in rule by Spain and Austria. 1700s is where i would say a distinct identity arose.