Italy Surrender

[caffran]

Hi all, looking for some advice.

I'm playing as UK and have started an early (Jan '36) conflict with Italy a la 'Butterfly Effect', and now I've captured all North Africa, I'm struggling to find a way to get Italy to surrender.

I've tried the 'lower national unity' cheat, and it works. sort of.

The problem is Italy joins the Axis, and they cant surrender if they are in a faction.

So some questions;

1. Is there a way to get Italy out of the Axis? they can't leave themselves, and Germany cant kick them out.

2. I've tried lowering Germany's NU to 10, but that doesn't work because Germany are not at war, so cannot surrender.

3. Even if Italy surrenders, I can't then release them. again because of the Axis.

In my next attempt, I think I might have Germany declare war, lower their NU, and then have them surrender. would that work, or will it completely screw up Germany's 'path'?

Any help or suggestions would be welcome.

But no 'alter the game files' please. dont know how to do it, and I dont trust myself to do it correctly.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Wraith11B]

Savegame editing. I don't have time right this instant about how to go about it, but I've done it a few times.

 

[marxianTJ]

The easiest way to do it is to stage a coup on Italy

I remembered posting about this in 2016 lol https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/remove-from-faction.903157/

 

[caffran]

ok, so my idea didn't work. Germany cant surrender, even with an NU of 10, because there is 0% progress on the surrender bar. I haven't occupied any of their territory. and if I do, I'll occupy all of Germany, which I dont want.

Effectively, I just want a white peace. back to where we started, and I can transfer the territory over after.

My last option is to trigger the 'Italy surrenders' event that will split the country in half and hope that works. but I doubt it.
Also, I cant find what event that actually is. I've searched all over the forums and i'll be buggered if I can find what event number it is.

@marxianTJ the coup might work, but it will take too long in game time to get that result. unless there's a cheat to give you unlimited spies that I haven't found

@Wraith11B if you have the time, editing the save game may be the only way. I would really appreciate a 'how to' guide, or the link to one you've done previously please.

It's so frustrating, because I'm willing to tag switch every province in Italian north Africa over to me if I have to, but I cant even do that because there's no way to end the war while their in the Axis.

I'm not sure it will even work then.

I need Italy intact and whole, but Libya, Eritrea, and Somaliland under British rule. Plus obviously, Ethiopia be a separate and sovereign Country. but keep the results of the war. the losses, experience, casualties, and the fact Italy has lost a war.
Speaking to the modders out there, is that even possible?

 

[Wraith11B]

Certainly! I'll put one together.

 

[Makje]

well if you can't make a "white peace" with italy in the diplomacy screen or any other kind of diplomatic solution and if you are 'desperate' then i guess there are 4 options:

1. start a new game. you attacked them in january 1936 so you can't be that far in the game
2. edit the save game to get Italy out of the Axis (just do a search on axis in the save game and remove either axis from the italy entry and/or remove italy from the axis faction section, i can't remember which one(s) apply here)
3. use console (`) and enter "surrender ITA ENG"
   
4. reload a save from just before Italies surrender and play on. In a faction there is a 90% chance of going Government in Exile and 10% chance of outright surrender.

 

[Wraith11B]

I decided it was probably easiest to do something less formal that would be easy to understand, as it's quite a bit of scrolling, but:

If you open up a save game in Notepad++ (which I highly recommend as opposed to the normal txt editor), just bring it to the bottom and then scroll up through the bottom. Somewhere around there (it's different line entries, but you'll scroll through the convoys etc) are a list of the factions, and all you have to do is delete the line with ITA in it. boom, it's out of the Axis. Go back to the top, and do a "find" search of "ITA=", the majors are listed in alphabetical order at the top before going into all of the other nations in the world. Scroll through their section to find "alignment=" and alter it to something near the "middle" (I don't know off hand what those values are, because they're super weird. I really wish they had made it a reasonable 2d cartesian plane so it would be obvious, but meh, I'm not the creator). Might want to search someone who is already neutral, copy their x/y, and paste it into ITA's portion (that way, ITA can't auto-rejoin the Axis).

 

[caffran]

@Wraith11B thank you so much dude, that worked a treat. got a white peace, and transferred all the territory over to me, which did take a while, but I dont care.

Really looking forward to letting it run now to see what happens next.

and @Makje thanks for the advice. not quite what I was going for, but appreciated none the less.

 

[Wraith11B]

Glad I could be of service!

 

[El Pip]

I'm playing as UK and have started an early (Jan '36) conflict with Italy a la 'Butterfly Effect', and now I've captured all North Africa, I'm struggling to find a way to get Italy to surrender..

Wise man, it's the best way to play.

Glad Wraith could help you out, if you do work out what happens after Italy is humbled be sure and let me know. It would be interesting to see what other people do in that scenario.

 

[caffran]

Wow, a visit from the master storyteller @El Pip himself . .

How did you even find this? nevermind, I've been caught. apologies for borrowing (stealing?) your idea. Just wanted to test it out on HoI3 to see if it was viable for you to move over. As you've seen from my amateur exploits ( again huge thanks to @Wraith11B ) it would be a massive amount of work. And all I did was start a war between Italy and UK, none of the other changes you've made.

Although I am considering starting again and trying to do a bit more. I assume if I kick France out of the allies, and tag switch to them, turn on the yesmen cheat, then I can form the little entente? Not sure if France will then try to re-join allies, and if so, will UK get to veto it as faction lead?

Anyway, to answer your question Pip, the main difference I found was the time factor. Maybe speed/travel time has been altered in 3, but it took nearly two months just to transport forces out from Britain to Egypt, and there is also a shortage of generals to command the divisions. I actually had to leave some of the TA divisions at home with no commander. The time factor meant the war lasted a lot longer for me. Didn't finish until 26/12/36, but part of that is because France was still in the allies so I had to pause the French AI, which meant Italy pushed up to Tunis. that added a month or so, but still surprising it took so long.

Since the end of the war and transferring all territory to me, nothing much seems to have changed. The only major thing I noticed is the Japanese declaration on China was delayed about 8 months. It didn't fire until late February '38. and im pretty sure Anschluss was delayed a few months also.

Other than that, it's all the same. Im at April '39, Czechoslovakia has gone at the usual times (was hoping they would decide to fight at munich. It happened once to me and was possibly the most enjoyable game I've played because I wasn't expecting it. was scrambling to get things ready a year early).
What surprised me though is Italy annexed Albania right on schedule. Il Duce does not seem cowed at all.

Damn this is a long post. sorry guys, hope you're still with me.

 

[El Pip]

Relax caff, it was a useful read and interesting to see the changes between 2 and 3. The Japanese declaration of war happens either July 1937 or anytime in 1938 (depends on the other variables), it's an Decision not event so in theory the AI should do it instantly when it's allowed. Based on that a delay there is possible. Anschluss Decision is hardcoded to the actual date (in theory) so shouldn't really be late. But this is a Paradox game so who knows?

A bit disappointing that the Italian AI didn't react to an early war, as you say surprising that he still went for Albania. I think part of the problem, as you found with getting Italy to just give up some land, is that HOI assumes Total War till unconditional surrender / annexation. Which I suppose is not unreasonable for WW2, but does make it difficult to do limited war.

I am a bit humbled you would put the effort in to see if moving Butterfly to HOI3 was viable, I hope you had other reasons as well and that you enjoyed the game at the same time.

 

[Wraith11B]

The Anschluss decision has a few variables thrown in. For instance, in my AAR recall that the Anschluss occurred in March 1936 (IIRC... it's been awhile!) which I think is the result of the "Political Maneuver" or Crisis whatevers can spring the decision early.

 

[Kovax]

"Anschluss" requires the National Socialists in Austria to have at least a certain percentage of either Organization or Popularity, OR for it to be past a certain date and for the "crisis in Austria" event to have fired (which happens at some semi-random time after the start of 1938). Playing Germany, it normally takes until at least late summer of 1937 to achieve the political condition with spies, although other random events affecting ruling party support and organization could conceivably alter that somewhat. After the historical date, the AI has a high daily chance to trigger the event, so while it's theoretically possible for it not to happen for months, in practice it will happen in the first couple of days of the month it's set to occur.

Czechoslovakia also has a couple of requirements for the "Munich" event, the first of which is that their National Unity be below 70%. Considering that they start at 70%, and the AI will normally not attempt to raise it above that, triggering the event as Germany is generally trivial, using a couple of spies. The second condition is that it is after the start of 1938, and the third is that Germany's Dissent is less than 1. If you trigger Anschluss in 1937 as Germany, you still have to burn off the Dissent from the event, and even if you manage that well before the end of 1937, you still need to wait until January 1, 1938 to fire "Munich". The AI is set to wait until the historical date later in 1938 before triggering it.

Other events, such as "Marco Polo Bridge" and the Spanish Civil War, have random start dates, so they may happen early, on time, or late. "Marco Polo Bridge" won't fire before some minimum date in 1937, but will generally fire in either mid-to-late 1937 or in 1938. I've seen the Spanish Civil War fire as early as late January of 1936, and in another game not seen it until the very tail end of 1938, by which time the Republicans had researched several additional techs and doctrines, while the Nationalists still had only their default 1936 starting doctrines and got wiped off the face of the planet in a little over a month.

 

[caffran]

I am a bit humbled you would put the effort in to see if moving Butterfly to HOI3 was viable, I hope you had other reasons as well and that you enjoyed the game at the same time.

Well, that was not the only reason. I've actually tried this a few times over the years just to see what would happen. It's such a great idea, and not way off the reservation either. A stronger PM in '36 and they might have stood up to Italy and closed the canal due to chemical weapons being used, so it's definitely plausible Alt history. Which is why your AAR is so enjoyable to read (just got to the after war reviews in my latest read through).

But with you ruminating about moving the project over to 3, and as one of the advocates for that, albeit with a caveat, I figured the least I could do was try once more. You need to be focused on new updates (hint hint), and this time i would find out how the hell to get a white peace. thanks to Wraith11b, I was able to do that.

BTW I've just remembered another change, none of the Dominions got involved in the war. their neutrality was too high to invite to faction, as they dont actually start in the allies. Obviously that would affect Australia doing so well, and even more so South Africa. Hertzog would not be able to try what he did in butterfly this way.

The war has started as normal in that playthrough, and I've kind of lost interest now as it seems much the same. What I will do is try again, and kick France out of allies, try to form the little entente, and maybe alter Italy's position on the 'faction chart'.

actually, @Wraith11B I couldn't find that part that you mentioned about altering where they are on the faction chart. I searched 'alignment=' but nothing was coming up. do you know where exactly it would be please?

@Kovax that's some really useful info, especially the Munich event. What if I send spies to 'support ruling party' in Czechoslovakia, as I do with France to raise NU. will that make Czech's more likely to fight over Munich? or just take Germany longer to actually fire the event?

 

[Wraith11B]

I would go through one of the country files very carefully. I think ENG= should be the first major, and just scroll through (it's going to be difficult, because the game doesn't have a way to offload the leader files and so they're all in there, taking up space). IIRC, it should be somewhere either near the top (so after the government section) or towards the bottom (near where it has the relations section). Sorry I can't be more specific, I don't have time to go through it with a fine-tooth comb.

 

[Kovax]

@Kovax that's some really useful info, especially the Munich event. What if I send spies to 'support ruling party' in Czechoslovakia, as I do with France to raise NU. will that make Czech's more likely to fight over Munich? or just take Germany longer to actually fire the event?

Unlike Anschluss, party strength has no effect on the Munich event, only National Unity. National Unity is not affected by Party Support, but Popularity is over the long run. The odds of CZE refusing Munich are set at something like 10%, regardless of other factors. Unless you use spies for counter-espionage, and manage to stop every spy before they can affect National Unity, the actions of your spies in Czechoslovakia have no effect on Germany's odds of annexing it without a fight, or the timing of the event. What could have an effect would be if Germany's Dissent were to remain above 1, but I don't think you can affect that directly. There's a lot of uncertainty, because the spy missions either no longer or never did do what the tooltips would seem to indicate (such as "Sabotage Production" affects repair rates, NOT production rates).

One of my main gripes about many of the HOI3 events is that they're not influenced by conditions which would either have made them likely or ruled them out as impractical, and most events are guaranteed to happen once all of the bare minimum conditions are met. The game would have been much better with those events being more or less likely to occur, depending on circumstances, rather than being triggered by "all or nothing" conditions. In particular, Party support, National Unity, Dissent, and other factors should have had proportional effects on the odds or severity of events, rather than merely allowing them to happen if over or under some threshold value. It was a good initial effort to get the game back to functionality, but still needed a little more work to make it elegant. I really think that HOI3 badly needed one more expansion/patch to complete it.

 

[El Pip]

I really think that HOI3 badly needed one more expansion/patch to complete it.

I'd agree with that. Even if Paradox didn't want to do it themselves I think there would have been buyers for a Darkest Hour / Arsenal of Democracy style release. A missed opportunity sadly.

 

[Wraith11B]

I tried to convince them to get some of the modders together to patch some of the more obvious errors (and to see what sort of random improvements could be made) ala DH/AoD. They basically said that they were not ever going to do that again because it required licensing their game, which they didn't want to do, but that confused me.