Italy still attacking France early & losing large amounts of manpower

[goodcigar]

This has been happening since the game released in 2016 I think. Italy historically attacked France on land on June 10 1940 when France was like 90% near defeat. However, in the game they attack many months before then and suffer huge manpower losses in the Alps mountains. I don't understand why nothing has been done about this, especially on Historical mode.

Between the German invasion of Poland September 1939 and June 1940, Italy was in fact a non-belligerent Axis power. They were in the Axis but did not engage in any fighting/offensive warfare. This is probably something that needs to be added as a mechanic in order to properly simulate events. Turkey for example is another country that joined the Allies (very late in war) but never engaged in offensive warfare.

Edit: Would also apply to Bulgaria I think. Don't think they ever engaged in offense.

Edit: Just looked in my current game, Italy has 408,000 casualties from attacking France on their border. The Germans just reached the outskirts of Paris.

 

[Federkiel]

Of course you did not see what i described since both prerequisites for AI GER short-term success were met:
- AI GER doing Fall Gelb immediately
- AI ITA insta-suiciding itself to distract Allied forces long enough so GER can get through

My description told the reason why the game does such straight non-historical crap per default: AI GER would otherwise lose in about 8 of 10 games.

Both are pure contradiction to the historical events but the game is more or less unable to produce it by default. A player ITA wanting to be closer to history can help the matter by
- not aligning with the Axis (AI GER then cannot constantly shuffle units between the French Alps and it's own mainland) and by
- sending volunteer air forces and ARM divs to make up for AI GER's deficiencies in both


I repeat: You can reproduce it by playing ITA and staying out of the mess entirely and witness AI GER's pitty underperformance.

This is meant as a dev workaround for AI GER being unable to beat France without aid from Italy. The issue is one of release day six years ago and hasn't been helped at all. Even more so by putting AI UK on production and researching ahead steroids some patches ago. They (along with France) totally outproduce AI GER on more modern FTR assets, resulting in a quick AI GER defeat in the air - and on the ground since UK has no problems to field twice it's historical army by that time (which gets doubled again by around 1941).


You can easily reproduce that issue by playing ITA and staying neutral in a historical manner.


Description is based on not using NSB but i doubt that this does actually change anything about that. Producing useful tanks hasn't become any easier with it - especially for AI - and the thing mostly is an air war matter anyway.


Workaround for ITA players wanting a somewhat historical ingame environment is heavily investing in (M)ARM and FTR; sending volunteers to AI GER. Not an elegant solution but a workaround for an long-untended problem.

Might either be an AI related problem or one of the balancing at the historical start of ww2 in the game. AI UK is scripted to field more than twice their historical number of divisions, research ahead FTR II quite a bit and also focuses on FTR production a lot. Devs aim was to avoid Sealion to be too easy which had been a problem in the more distant past.

A player ITA staying neutral in way more than 50% of the time results in AI GER totally losing early on. The game is balanced to ITA immediately join ww2 and forcing FRA and UK to engage in other theaters, binding a share of their forces elsewhere. If this does not happen with ITA in the hands of a player who wishes to play historically (and preserving his fleet along the way), the AI Allies bring all their wrath down on their only enemy. As is in the game, that's more than AI GER can handle. They end up totally outclassed in the air which also brings them to a halt on the ground most of the time.

A workaround i have recommended to several other ITA players posting the same issue is: Send 4 ARM divs plus several hundred FTR as volunteers to help AI GER turn the tide. Be aware that the volunteer divs will be not available for two weeks when you join the war yourself. The planes beam to home soil ASAP instead.

I dare to quote myself in the above posts at different stages of patches / updates. The matter however isn't any new at all. While the exact amount of impact has changed a bit over the course of development / patches in the meantime, the bottom line stays the same:

AI GER cannot reliably win it without ITA's suicide run in the game. I believe this will stay the same until AI (GER) gets taught how to produce enough ARM - and most of all - use it as intended: Not as border guards towards USSR after the end of Fall Weiss but as spearheads in the west.

As soon as AI can do - the whole ingame balance will again have to be redefined as in it's current form ARM attack axes are a 'rare' occasion (i.e. land offensives are being mainly INF based) and almost all AI nations do not even employ ARM divs sufficiently.

Another aspect: The current game 'balance' assumes that GER takes over Benelux and France by new year's eve '40. If (AI) GER waits until 10th of May until it launches the operation, it will miss the gained assets (resources and production) while FRA and ENG will be stronger at the same time.

 

[PillBox20]

I am in support of this. Especially when you mentioned Turkey.
I don't know what can be done for them thou. Their focus tree is organised the way it is. Even if their AI is made to not join faction until a specific date or something, they will still make their focus to join the Allies way before they should. It is by design that they join 2-3 years early.

As for Italy it should be a matter of scripted trigger/effect. The Italian AI should refuse to accept call to war or request to join a war until (for example) Italy gets an event that the time is now and France is about 80-90% towards capitulation. This will save Italy manpower and also prevent (on historical at least) potential Italian land grab in case they get to Paris first.

Lots of work on AI, so I don't think this will be one of the last suggestions on that topic.

 

[jpd]

I dare to quote myself in the above posts at different stages of patches / updates. The matter however isn't any new at all. While the exact amount of impact has changed a bit over the course of development / patches in the meantime, the bottom line stays the same:

AI GER cannot reliably win it without ITA's suicide run in the game. I believe this will stay the same until AI (GER) gets taught how to produce enough ARM - and most of all - use it as intended: Not as border guards towards USSR after the end of Fall Weiss but as spearheads in the west.

This is not my experience.

I've played dozens of Italy games lately, and I always stubbornly refuse the german call to arms (which gets issued once germany AI is invading the Benelux), mainly because I want my hands free to execute a local war + annex of Greece and Yugoslavia in the summer of 1940.

AI germany never had any problems in subdueing France without my help. The only time the AI actually got bogged down in northern france was when I also refused to join the axis. Simply joining the axis before AI germany starts the campaign in the west triggers the england AI to redistribute a lot of divisions to Africa, to both egypt and the border of ethiopia. Divisions that would otherwise end up in northern france. That alone is enough for germany AI to beat france.

 

[marcelo r. r.]

I've played dozens of Italy games lately, and I always stubbornly refuse the german call to arms (which gets issued once germany AI is invading the Benelux), mainly because I want my hands free to execute a local war + annex of Greece and Yugoslavia in the summer of 1940.

Yes, the german rush meta was in early game days, where bel+hol spammed 20+ div each and uk sent even more to their border.

Actually AI HOL, is easily stomped by AI GER.

The problematic point is BEL border, where there are few tiles(all fortified), and BEL AI stack 12+ divisions theres, thats the point whos stuck AI GER.

Another workaround is "teach" to AI GER use paratroopers(and thats historical).

 

[Findell_HOI]

Yes they can get stuck in the benelux because AI Eng will plane it enough to let AI Fra to hold those tiles sometimes.

 

[Vin55]

I dont see that Problem, in most games the germans just Blitz through, the problem is later for me, soviets are too weak and germans fight stupid wars in congo, where they send their tank corps. The german ai should not be going through the north atlantic, that is so immersion breaking and stupid. Also the Italians and Germans are still unable to get Greece, because the supply system sucks there, I mean they had trains in Greece and it was ok developed compared to Siberia, I mean the supply system is still bad so if that is not fixed I guess they will not fix that.

 

[American Traveler]

In all my Italy games I stay out of the war with France and Germany never has a problem with France.

Any thoughts on how to mod this behavior out of the game (Italy joining too soon)? Would this be in defines?